So Much Blood

(dynomight.net)

383 points | by debesyla 1 day ago

22 comments

  • blakesterz 20 hours ago
    It's worth a read, even if it's not obvious what it's about from that title.

      "To get the actual data, you need to go through a website maintained by the US Trade Commission. This website has good and bad aspects. On the one hand, it’s slow and clunky and confusing and often randomly fails to deliver any results. On the other hand, when you re-submit, it clears your query and then blocks you for submitting too many requests, which is nice."
    • ytpete 9 hours ago
      > even if it's not obvious what it's about from that title

      Tangent, but: I wish Hacker News was a bit less dogmatic about preferring the original site's title over any better semantic summary the submitter might offer. Blog posts and news headlines have a strong incentive to be clickbait-ey or just plain catchy, which often makes them less informative and in turn makes the HN homepage harder to scan for interesting posts.

      It also feels like an arbitrary dividing line where if the original title is too long to fit HN's max limit, the submitter edits it and their take on what's a good summary stands. But if the original title could fit, the submitter's headline is often overwritten with the article title by mods even if it's less useful.

      • qwertox 1 hour ago
        I just thought about this 10 minutes ago, when I saw the top post "Mycoria is an open and secure overlay network that connects all participants".

        The actual title of the page is "Mycoria".

        I actually wanted to thank the submitter for extending the title to something meaningful, but thought that it would be a too low value-adding comment.

      • zahlman 8 hours ago
        Agreed. I feel awkward sharing my blog here, because I title my posts to appeal to a hypothetical regular audience, but I'm trying to build a regular audience by showing it to non-regulars who lack the context to interpret the title. (Or rather: I want the title to be sensible and entertaining in hindsight.)
        • taneq 8 hours ago
          Could you title your posts in a HN-friendly style and subtitle them with your actual preferred title? And then (if this wouldn’t be considered Poor Form) swap back to the original title once it’s dropped off the front page?
      • smcin 8 hours ago
        Agreed. That's the second in the last few days: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43880951
    • andai 15 hours ago
      On a vaguely related note, I hacked together a WayBack machine type thing on top of Common Crawl in like 50 lines of Python. So it transparently lets you load any page directly from the dumps (it loads only those few bytes from the crawl dumps, and gunzips them).

      It was really easy, and I was surprised it apparently hadn't been done before.

      The only problem is the index IP blocks you if you query it too often, and it gets queried once for every resource on the page.

      I've been informed that there are ways around this (download an index?), does anyone know more about that?

      • RestartKernel 13 hours ago
        Couldn't this still work as a service if you run all queries through the front-end?
      • speerer 15 hours ago
        This sounds a fantasic idea. Will you be releasing it?
  • mehulashah 18 hours ago
    First — 0.69% of total exports is blood still is surprisingly high! Remember, you can get blood from humans in your own country, and prepare it there. So, why do you need it from the US?

    Second — it’s amazing the detail that you can achieve from public data.

    Third — I’m left wondering if a true “Deep Research” like tool would be able to provide the same analysis. I find that Deep Research is fine for secondary sources, but not for Deep Analysis of primary source data.

    • youainti 17 hours ago
      The reason the US exports blood products is because it is one of 5 countries that allow commercial blood product harvesting. Well, at least plasma. I don't remember which organization it is, but there is an international organization that tries to get countries to be "self-sufficient" in blood products so that they are not internationally traded (the organization is something like WHO, UN, or Red Cross). Only those 5 countries that allow some level of commercialization actually meet their goals of being self sufficient (and export as on top of that).

      Source: A guest lecture at my university by Al Roth, Nobel prize-winner in economics, who is currently focusing his work on these type of markets. Most of his work is on kidney exchanges right now.

      • eru 39 minutes ago
        It would be useful to allow more organ trading in general, not just in blood or blood plasma.

        Iran is one of the few countries that allow you to pay eg kidney donors. Guess who doesn't have a waitlist for donor kidneys?

      • ajkjk 16 hours ago
        Man it is weird that the word for that is "harvesting".
        • aziaziazi 13 hours ago
          I had that weird moment a few days ago learning that word is also used when you slaughter a (non human) animal:

          "The chickens are harvest when they’re 32 days old"

          Let’s sprout some semence in the cow (or not).

          • aaronbaugher 13 hours ago
            If that sounds weird, the term around here for butchering chickens is "dressing" them, as in, "We're going to dress chickens today."
            • chris1993 10 hours ago
              The term for slaughtering pigs around here is 'turning them off' - all attempts to disconnect from the reality of what is happening.
              • taneq 8 hours ago
                Cognitive dissonance really is required to keep our “warm fuzzy empathic friendly” self image while simultaneously being ruthlessly pragmatic cold blooded killers when it suits us.
        • przemub 15 hours ago
          Pretty accurate though!
          • ajkjk 10 hours ago
            I don't think so? To me 'harvest' implies that the crop is destroyed afterwards.
            • foxglacier 9 hours ago
              We "harvest" all sorts of tree-grown products without killing the trees.
              • eru 38 minutes ago
                Similar for Asparagus.
        • bliteben 16 hours ago
          Just wait till these robot maximalists figure out that a pile of oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, and nitrogen is much cheaper than robots made out of steel and carbon fiber.
          • caycep 16 hours ago
            I mean, they haven't glommed onto the daily experience of giving a kid a snickers bar and asking them a question is cheaper than building a nuclear reactor to power GPT4o levels of LLM...
            • jjmarr 15 hours ago
              If we could directly convert the food energy of a Snickers bar to electricity we could easily power AI. A Snickers bar has 250 kcal, which is 1000 kJ or about 250 grams of TNT.[https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=250+kcal+in+joule] chatgpt-4 uses 3.6 kJ to 36 kJ per query so you could get potentially hundreds of queries on a single Snickers bar.

              We only need a way to harness the power of the human body. Maybe we put people in VR for fun while using their body heat to power the AI.

              • eru 35 minutes ago
                TNT and other explosives have relatively little energy per kg compared to eg petrol or snickers.

                That's explosives are chemicals selected / designed to be able to release their chemical energy really quickly and without needing any external oxidizer (because harvesting atmospheric oxygen would be too slow). That focus obviously leads to compromises in other areas, like energy density.

              • caycep 13 hours ago
                But then eventually you need Keanu Reeves to put boundary conditions on the AI
                • toast0 10 hours ago
                  I was watching The Matrix Revolutions last night with my 14-year old. At one point, he told me "hey, that looks like ... Keanu Reeves"
              • spookie 14 hours ago
                The snickers bar allows more than a single query for the human though
                • TeMPOraL 14 hours ago
                  Temporarily, on the margin. A human would need multiple Snickers bars per day to survive, and can't survive on Snickers bars alone for more than couple days or weeks.

                  Also no human is anywhere close to being as knowledgeable and skilled as LLMs at all the things at the same time, so it hardly even compares.

                  • drilbo 12 hours ago
                    days? Pretty sure I could survive at least a couple years off snicker bars
                    • krisoft 1 hour ago
                      Probably not years. My guess is that scurvy, beriberi, or some other deficiency would get you in at most a year.
                      • eru 34 minutes ago
                        Though most of these diseases can be avoided with some minimal fortification to the snickers bar that wouldn't really require noticeably more energy.
                  • kortilla 11 hours ago
                    > and can't survive on Snickers bars alone for more than couple days or weeks.

                    lol, the spoiled times we live in that you think this. The human body is capable of surviving on very little.

                    A thing with protein, fat and sugar would sustain you for incredible amounts of time. Many many months if not years.

                    • eru 31 minutes ago
                      Only if you also ate some random other stuff you found lying around. Doesn't even have to provide much in the way of energy, just enough 'dirt' to round out your diet with whatever other essentials you need.

                      Human bodies have evolved to survive for a long time on relatively little, yes. But not to evolve for a very long time on a single source of very 'clean' food like snickers bars. 'Clean' in the sense that chemically snickers has relatively well defined inputs, whereas hungry humans would eat just about anything, including insects and grass and bark or leather.

                • jjmarr 11 hours ago
                  I don't think I could write lengthy responses to hundreds of questions on a singular Snickers bar. I would need multiple.
            • TeMPOraL 14 hours ago
              They're fully aware of the obvious fact that LLMs are getting better at reasoning than humans at scale in general, and this includes power efficiency too. Meanwhile, what is not getting comparably better is robotics. This leads to obvious conclusion about natural order of things and division of labor: computers are for thinking, humans are for doing manual labor.
              • autoexec 12 hours ago
                > the obvious fact that LLMs are getting better at reasoning than humans

                I wanted to say that you were wrong, that LLMs can't reason and so it certainly isn't an obvious truth that they do it better than humans, but when I asked AI if LLMs can reason it told me that they can't which (while still not being reasoned by the LLM) seems to support the spirit of your claim since it gave a correct answer while you (a presumed human that can reason) got it wrong.

                • umanwizard 12 hours ago
                  How are you defining “reasoning”?
                  • autoexec 12 hours ago
                    That seems to be the hangup. I have to use a definition that would put it on equal footing to what we do as humans since that's the comparison being made.

                    Computers and software can be said to "understand", "think", and "reason" in their own way and informally people have always used those words in that context. Recently, software which has been trained on human-reasoned output is producing text that mimics reasoning well enough that it can be confused for the real thing, but nobody has been able to show that any reasoning (as a human reasons) is what's occurring.

                    • eru 30 minutes ago
                      Why do you care if the software 'reasons'?

                      If the output it produces is as useful to me as the output produced by a human with the magical and expensive capability to 'reason', why should I care?

                    • umanwizard 12 hours ago
                      You didn't answer my question.
                      • autoexec 10 hours ago
                        There are several that would apply. Let's use this one as an example: Reason is the capacity of consciously applying logic by drawing valid conclusions from new or existing information, with the aim of seeking the truth.
                        • barrkel 50 minutes ago
                          I don't think you need consciousness to reason. I don't see why repeated application of rewrite rules to extrapolate logical conclusions from antecedents shouldn't be considered reasoning. LLMs are perfectly able to match and apply rewrite rules, while using fuzzy concepts rather than being bound to crisp ontologies that make symbolic reasoning impractical to scale up. And for better or worse, LLMs can also apply simplified heuristics and rules of thumb, and end up making the same mistakes that humans make.
                        • umanwizard 9 hours ago
                          > consciously

                          What does this mean?

                          • autoexec 8 hours ago
                            If you think "consciously" is a loaded term, wait until you get to "truth"!

                            Maybe it'd be easier to try another definition:

                            2 a(1) : the power of comprehending, inferring, or thinking especially in orderly rational ways : intelligence

                            The same source defined intelligence as:

                            a(1) : the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : reason also : the skilled use of reason

                            And here we get the core of the issue. AI doesn't "think". It doesn't comprehend or understand what it does. There is no actual "I" in AI that didn't come from the people whose works were used to train it. At least not yet. I question if LLMs will ever be capable of anything more than producing a convincing affectation of the process used to produce the material it was trained on. I suspect that AGI will have to come from elsewhere. That doesn't mean that what passes for AI these days can't be useful, but I don't think it's capable of reason and as far as I know, nobody has proved otherwise.

                            • barrkel 45 minutes ago
                              Comprehend, from com- ("together" or "with") and prehendere ("to seize" or "grasp"). To take a hold of.

                              Can a calculator comprehend arithmetic? Can it take a hold of a number (in a register, for example), and a second number, and add them together to get a hold of the result?

                              What is computation, really? When we design machines to do arithmetic, do the machines actually do arithmetic, or do they just coincidentally come up with states that we humans can interpret as a correspondence with arithmetic?

                              More importantly, would a rose by any other name smell as sweet?

                              If you put a problem into text, and give it to an LLM, and an LLM applied a series of higher order pattern matching to it to produce more text, and you read the resulting text and interpret it as reasoning about the solution to a problem, has the LLM reasoned? Does the calculator calculate? Or does it really matter?

                            • int_19h 52 minutes ago
                              Have you ever watched an LLM with CoT solve a logical puzzle?
                • foxglacier 9 hours ago
                  We might be elevating the importance of reasoning too much because us humans need to use it to solve many difficult problems. But if intuition was stronger, conscious/explicit/logical reasoning might not be needed. Didn't the famous mathemetician Ramanujan say that God gave him his answers in his dreams? That sounds like really powerful intuition like an LLM. Us humans can already solve a lot of incredibly complex problems intuitively, but they're quite domain-specific, like for spatial navigation and social interaction.
              • caycep 13 hours ago
                Well, don't blame me, I voted for Kodos...
                • TeMPOraL 3 hours ago
                  Kodos the Executioner, or the Rigelian from The Simpsons?
              • throwaway173738 9 hours ago
                I’m excited at our future where we’re mind-stapled together to be used as meat for our AI overlords to enact their obtuse plans.
            • falcor84 11 hours ago
              To all of you complaining about LLMs hallucinating, do try to give the same prompt to a kid on a sugar rush and let me know if you're getting more reliable responses.
            • pfdietz 14 hours ago
              If a person costs $100K/year to employ, at $0.10/kWh that would buy 1 GWh/year, or a steady power of over 100 kW.
      • hamilyon2 11 hours ago
        The other countries also export a lot of blood, just illegally. Those exports might count as US exports in statistics for laundering reasons.
        • eru 29 minutes ago
          Sources?
    • rco8786 10 hours ago
      > So, why do you need it from the US?

      I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that most other countries don't allow people to sell their blood for money.

      • riffraff 4 hours ago
        That is the reason. I also believe countries that do allow people to sell their blood have looser regulations on blood donations.

        E.g. Hungary allows you to give blood every 56 days (and allows selling it), Italy requires you to wait 90 days (and does not).

    • Lerc 12 hours ago
      >Third — I’m left wondering if a true “Deep Research” like tool would be able to provide the same analysis. I find that Deep Research is fine for secondary sources, but not for Deep Analysis of primary source data.

      In the searches I have done Google's "Deep Research" has been better at providing primary data (or very convincingly fabricating).

      OpenAI's version seems to more likely to give the answer that everybody thinks is true. For the blood example I could see it finding many sources that repeat the 2% claim, and accept that because everyone seems to agree, then it must be right. That's a mixed blessing in that maybe most casual users might want the commonly accepted answer, but when I have used the deep research tools, it has almost always because I know the answer everybody gives for a particular question, but I suspect it might not be based in reality. This makes my reason for wanting an automated deep research tool coinciding with the weakest area of the tool itself.

      It's also been a bit eye opening how often commonly repeated but poorly founded claims, seem to turn up the same names of individuals, (or organisations, or individuals pretending to be organisations) as you trace them back.

    • derefr 16 hours ago
      > Remember, you can get blood from humans in your own country, and prepare it there. So, why do you need it from the US?

      Random hypothesis:

      • equipment needs for uranium enrichment for Manhattan project in 1940s

      => US cornering the market on centrifuges (in both a "we buy them all" sense and a "we won't let companies sell them to other state actors in quantity" sense) for decades

      => US biomedical manufacturing of anything requiring centrifuging as a step, quickly outstripping that of all other countries

      => eventual global logistical dependence on US-based suppliers for such products

      • eru 27 minutes ago
        The centrifuges needed for biology (or medicine) are very different beasts from those you need for uranium enrichment.

        Miele and Bosch makes great centrifuges for their washing machines. That technology is probably closer to what you need for blood, than the uranium enrichment equipment would be.

      • philipkglass 15 hours ago
        Centrifuge enrichment was considered for the Manhattan Project but rejected because early experiments encountered many problems:

        https://www.osti.gov/opennet/manhattan-project-history/Proce...

        Centrifuge uranium enrichment wasn't developed to an industrial scale until the 1960s, and it first happened outside the United States:

        https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-c...

      • daedrdev 12 hours ago
        In reality simply that the US lets you pay people for blood plasma, an the market does the rest.

        There are similar arguments made for kidney donation. Paying people a set amount kidneys is exploiting the poor, but most those who need kidneys are not well off and there is an enormous shortage causing massive shortages, so some argue that we should pay since society would be net better off.

        • eru 26 minutes ago
          If memory serves right, Iran allows compensating people for kidneys.
    • hwillis 15 hours ago
      Well GPT-4o just insisted over and over that it was getting 500 errors while refusing to actually check the page. So... not yet.
    • cubefox 16 hours ago
      > Third — I’m left wondering if a true “Deep Research” like tool would be able to provide the same analysis.

      Note that this analysis was performed by Dynonight, a rather bright blogger whose articles appeared several times on the HN front page. The vast majority of humans (I include myself here) probably wouldn't be able to achieve a result of comparable quality, even if it doesn't look that hard in retrospect.

      LLM Deep Research can already exceed the performance of not-so-bright humans, but it is a quite different matter to outperform smart people like Dynomight. (I guess "research experts" isn't quite the right term here. The mentioned journalist from The Economist apparently was unable to research the topic to a similar degree, even though research is a main part of his/her job.)

  • boesboes 19 hours ago
    Funny, because it is illegal to pay donors here. I used to be a donor, but the energy and effort it takes were too much for me at the time. And plasma donors have to 'free up' a lot more time.

    Not to mention how i get a cookie and the semi-goverment organisation charges >600€ for a baggie to hospitals. Someone needs to pay for that CEO's third house and car collection!

    • -warren 19 hours ago
      Funny data story time.

      I used to operate a database for a large North American alcohol retailer. We had a problem with our data that said that 30% of the ring from a particular store saw the name "A GIFT FOR YOU" on the CC stripe. After months of bitter accusations of my database being incorrect, we flew someone out to investigate.

      We found that a block away from the store was a plasma "donation" facility. In order to skirt various laws, when you "donate", you are given a prepaid credit card. The name on the card is "A GIFT FOR YOU". Donators then took that card directly to the alcohol store.

      All of the data was correct; 30% of the ring from one store was paid by credit cards from the plasma "donation" facility with "A GIFT FOR YOU" on the card. A large reputational battle then commenced as the retailer thought of themselves as a high-end "wine and craft beer" store, when ultimately it turns out Budweiser pays the bills.

      *edited for clarity

      • sidewndr46 18 hours ago
        There's an industry piece that points out that a remarkable percentage of beer sales in the US are single cans stored cold, sold at convenience stores. Most residents of the US drive to convenience stores. Given that they are buying 1-2 cans at a time it doesn't take much in the way of inference to figure out that they are buying them to be consumed while driving.
        • raddan 18 hours ago
          When I was in graduate school, my wife and I bought an affordable house in a neighborhood with a big factory next door. It was otherwise a lovely place, and so my morning jog often took me up and down the rural roads around the factory. On every road within a kilometer of the factory, the roadsides were littered with beer cans. On one particularly early morning, I was running when the late shift got out, and I watched somebody finish work (around 6am), get in their truck, pop open a beer, start driving, and then throw the can out the window as they drove past me. Given the quantity of cans on the roadside, this probably went on for years.
        • afandian 17 hours ago
          Refrigerated beer is not allowed in retail shops in Sweden! Tangential but interesting.

          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systembolaget

          • petesergeant 1 hour ago
            I have used the same system at home to reduce unplanned beers. Alcohol-free beers are always in the fridge waiting, and the ones with alcohol in are somewhere much warmer. On the two to three nights a week I want a refreshing malted beverage, this almost always leads to me going for the alcohol-free version.

            That said, following your Wikipedia link, it seems that a different mechanic is at play:

            > "No product may be favoured over another, which in practice means that the beers are not refrigerated, since otherwise all beer would have to be refrigerated which is too expensive."

          • dehrmann 17 hours ago
        • xkcd-sucks 17 hours ago
          Same thing with nips (1oz liquor bottles) which you see everywhere on roadsides in some parts of the US - The product basically exists to make open containers immediately disposable
          • neutronicus 17 hours ago
            I thought it existed so you could cheaply spike drinks at baseball games
            • the_jeremy 14 hours ago
              The majority of litter on the sidewalks of the through streets near me is those 1oz shooters. Followed by aluminum cans (mostly beer), fast food trash (plastic cups for sauces, disposable drink cups), and then household trash that looks like it flew out of a trash can on windy days (empty boxes, plastic wrappers, a bottle of laundry detergent, etc).

              Source: new year's resolution to pick up at least 1 piece of trash per dog walk.

        • neutronicus 17 hours ago
          IDK

          I live in Baltimore and I see a lot of people drinking singles out of a paper bag on the corner or their stoop. I've seen it on the bus, too.

          Might be more of a hood corner store thing than a rural guy in a pickup buying a beer for the drive home type thing.

        • stickfigure 18 hours ago
          I'm not following the logic. Why do you assume they aren't drunk at home?
          • sidewndr46 18 hours ago
            Pretty much everyone in the US owns a working fridge. If you just want to get drunk at home, you just buy a case of beer and leave it in there. It's actually much cheaper to buy beer by the case in most places
            • bee_rider 12 hours ago
              Although I also assume people are drinking these beers in the car, it does seem like a bit of a leap… I mean, an alternative is that they just figure they’d rather have the beer ready right when they get home (instead of sticking it in the fridge for a bit).
            • Cerium 18 hours ago
              There are also other good reasons to buy a single can from the fridge. For example, I do it frequently when staying at a hotel.
            • bombcar 18 hours ago
              Not if you're the type of poor person who buys lottery tickets, cans of beer, and cigarettes by the single.
            • jonas21 11 hours ago
              But that requires planning ahead. The whole point of a convenience store is that it's a convenient place to get small quantities when you didn't plan ahead, and people are willing to pay a premium for that.
            • kortilla 10 hours ago
              Some people don’t want to get drunk or buy a whole case.
            • IdPreferNotTo 18 hours ago
              warm beer is better
              • bee_rider 12 hours ago
                Better beer is served warm I think, but much of our beer is not that type.
                • eru 16 minutes ago
                  Some good beer is better served warmer. Say, an imperial stout. But not all eg Pilseners are bad.

                  There's also the rare mulled beer which is drunk hot.

        • bombcar 18 hours ago
          I'd actually be willing to take that bet against the inference. Here's my logic:

          The only places that sell individual beers are convenience stores

          Some of them are driven too, sure, but lots are also in city areas

          Even so, people who only have a few bucks drive to the store where they can buy the beer, and drive home and drink it

          If these were common cases, cops would lay in wait and nab them for open container.

          • pixl97 17 hours ago
            >If these were common cases, cops would lay in wait and nab them for open container.

            I mean, they do. One of the big issues is coverage of enforcement. Here in Texas you see disparities where arrests in big cities converge on public intoxication, where in smaller cities you run into a higher ratio of open container because of cops having time to sit and watch stores.

          • IdPreferNotTo 18 hours ago
            did you know you can buy a single bottle taken out from a multipack at any us grocery store?
            • dbbr 17 hours ago
              Sauce?
        • nicbou 17 hours ago
          For some people, a beer is a once-in-a-while add-on to their purchase, a bit like a chocolate bar. I rarely drink at home but I can be tempted by a balcony beer when the weather is right.
        • nfriedly 17 hours ago
          The obvious solution is better public transit!

          (Joking.. but not really.)

          • AStonesThrow 17 hours ago
            Speaking of public transit: bus stops and train stations are prime locations to drink your singlet can of beer and drop it on the ground, in a planter, or just leave it on a seat for someone else to move it later.

            While it is not easy to drink an open container on a bus or train, drunks will consistently stop in a nearby convenience store, have a cold one before boarding, and leave it there for others to clean up. I suspect that a high percentage of convenience-store sales for singlet cans and bottles may be attributed to pedestrians and transit passengers.

            • eru 15 minutes ago
              Cans are actually good for this. (Much better than bottles.)

              Aluminium is so comparatively high value, that it's usually in someone's interest to collect it.

              Used glass is just bulky and cheap per gram.

        • kortilla 10 hours ago
          This isn’t a correct assumption. I buy one or two singles to drink at home when I don’t feel like committing to a whole six pack.

          And I buy them cold because I want them right when I get home. Not after an hour of cooling down in the fridge.

    • criddell 19 hours ago
      Have you actually looked up what how much a blood bank CEO makes? Is it a lot?

      Edit: I just did a bit of research and didn't come up with a lot. I found this example [1] where the CEO's total compensation is $414k. That doesn't seem all that high...

      [1]:https://givefreely.com/charity-directory/nonprofit/ein-57066...

      • boesboes 19 hours ago
        Well, not in the us. here that is considered an unenthical amount for a semi-public servant.

        In 2011 they made 260k€, which was at then time about 50% more then our prime minister made. Which is used as a norm to limit how much you are allowed to make when working for public services.

        • Permit 18 hours ago
          Is it enough to have three houses and a car collection as you previously stated?
          • skrebbel 17 hours ago
            Pretty close? Like 80k for your regular living expenses leaves you 180k/y in savings. That's a nice holiday house in France every few years.

            I mean to really get to a mansion and multiple holiday houses and a bunch of fancy cars you need to work the job for like 15 years, but still. In NL (where I think GP is from) earning that kind of money qualifies you as "seriously rich". Even more so if the salary got inflation-adjusted since 2011.

            • kortilla 10 hours ago
              Does your country not have taxes? Progressive taxation eats a lot of that quickly and all of the tax benefits of home ownership aren’t available for secondary homes. Additionally, vacation homes in desirable vacation places cost even more than normal homes.

              Someone making 3x a normal salary is not excessive by any means.

      • GuinansEyebrows 17 hours ago
        I need to shout into the HN void that, yes, $414k is a very high compensation.
        • pinkmuffinere 14 hours ago
          The CEO of a blood bank likely has the skills and connections to be a CEO of many other for-profit companies, where they would make much more than $414k. Intermediate FAANG employees are paid more. I’m perfectly happy that this person gets $414k for their role in _saving lives_.
          • voidUpdate 2 hours ago
            Mid level faang employees get paid over 10 times more than me? I need to get a new job...
          • GuinansEyebrows 13 hours ago
            I’m not convinced that any CEO is worth what we generally expect they be paid.
            • eru 13 minutes ago
              Are you suggesting that shareholders are selfless donors to CEOs?
            • pinkmuffinere 12 hours ago
              Emotionally I agree — what could these people be doing to uniquely add millions of dollars of value? However, the fact that they aren’t replaced with cheaper options is (imo) pretty good evidence that they are uniquely worth that pay. If there was a cheaper option, the board of directors would replace the CEO, and enrich themselves and other shareholders with the saved money.

              Either way, that’s kindof disconnected for the CEO of this bloodbank. Their opportunity cost is quite high. They choose to work for comparatively low pay, but have a positive impact on the world.

              • mordae 3 hours ago
                The strongest predictor of you wage is physical distance to the CEO outside business hours. The second is physical distance to the CFO.

                Since CEO is with them all the time, it follows they get the most.

              • GuinansEyebrows 11 hours ago
                i think i understand where you're coming from, but i think you're begging the question a little bit (ie, ceo pay is high because it is high).

                i do think it's more likely that the executive class has a vested interest in keeping their own pay high (not just CEOs, but board members as you've mentioned), and they've got a lot more class solidarity than the rest of us, though they'd never put it that way - it's just The Way Of Things, you know? divide and conquer.

                i should maybe mention that i'm a public employee and my "opportunity cost" is also relatively high, but... hell is hot, and i want to be able to sleep at night.

                • kortilla 10 hours ago
                  The board and shareholders are not made of CEOs. They are compensating the CEO highly because it’s giving them stock returns.

                  If that correlation doesn’t exist, then investors should be able to easily drive CEO comp way down.

                  • triceratops 9 hours ago
                    The boards of most public companies are made up mostly of C-level executives of other public companies. Retail shareholders hardly ever get involved to a sufficient degree to fire boards.
                    • eru 13 minutes ago
                      Why would retail shareholders need to get involved?

                      That's what we have eg corporate raiders for.

        • marbro 15 hours ago
          [dead]
      • keybored 18 hours ago
        > That doesn't seem all that high...

        Maybe not that high by SC/HN standards.

      • delfinom 18 hours ago
        That's nothing. In NY, the "non-profit", "New York Blood Center" has a monopoly on blood harvesting, even the Red Cross has no blood drives here as a result.

        Their CEO makes $3 million, most of their executives above $400k.

        https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/131... (look under Compensation)

        Fuck this shit.

        They also award them bonuses.

        They are so bloated that they invest in PE funds with their spare cash.

        • treis 16 hours ago
          I interviewed at a place that made the software to track blood as it moved around. It's a regulated thing to make sure that the blood stays cold and that they can track who donated. Anyways, the point is that the guy who interviewed me casually mentioned that the PE firm bought up companies until they controlled 90% of the market. I'm sure they're making bank off blood as well.
    • simonw 19 hours ago
      Which country are you talking about? I believe it's legal to pay donors on the USA.

      Presumably a European county given you quoted euros?

      Looks like the EU encourages member states to encourage unpaid donations:

      > Furthermore, Member States should take measures to promote Community self-sufficiency in human blood or blood components and to encourage voluntary unpaid donations of blood and blood components.

      From https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2002/98/oj/eng

      • boesboes 19 hours ago
        Yeah, I am in the Netherlands.

        They say paying donors puts them & patients at risk, because it would stimulate donors' to lie about their health when donating and we can't be asked to test blood for everything. And the say it is unethical to pay for human tissues.

        Except when they are selling it ;)

        • ozornin 18 hours ago
          I have the same story in the same country with presumably the same organization (Sanquin). I used to give blood, but not anymore because I don't find what they're doing ethical.
          • aeternum 16 hours ago
            Does it just not feel ethical or is one of their claims false?

            Both of the key claims do seem to have evidence to support them:

            1) Paying for blood shifts the socioeconomic distribution of the donor pool.

            2) The socioeconomic shift results in more contaminated blood due to greater incidence of drug use and/or related blood-borne diseases that cannot all be tested for with high accuracy.

            • amadeuspagel 11 hours ago
              The second claim would applies just as much to the US.
        • refurb 5 hours ago
          I can assure you that the Netherlands tests all blood donations. It’s been standard for decades now.

          People have diseases they don’t know about and if people are ashamed by a disease, they’ll lie even when donating.

          I just shuddered thinking that donations wouldn’t be tested.

          • reycharles 4 hours ago
            to be fair they said "test for everything"
      • n4r9 19 hours ago
        It is legal in the US. In fact you can potentially make a decent bit of money if you're paid $70 per donation and can donate 100 times per year [0]. Don't know if it would be worth the time to travel to the centre and wait in line, for many HN users.

        [0] https://www.goodrx.com/health-topic/finance/how-much-donatin...

        • aidenn0 18 hours ago
          You could sell your plasma twice a week in the town I went to college. We also found that it took significantly less alcohol to get drunk if you had nearly a liter less plasma running through your veins, so it would also save us money in the evening!
        • psini 18 hours ago
          You can donate every 3~4 days in the US? In France I believe it is only once every 2 months for men and every 3 months for women!

          edit: confused plasma donation with blood donation; it is still only every 2 weeks for plasma donations over here

        • mcculley 17 hours ago
          My understanding, at least where I live, Florida, is that plasma can be sold, but whole blood must be donated. I still get a $25-$35 gift card every time I donate a pint of whole blood (as close as possible to every 8 weeks).
      • 3pt14159 19 hours ago
        Possibly Canadian, where it isn't legal to buy human blood.
    • e_i_pi_2 17 hours ago
      On the other side, it is legal to pay donors where I am, but then it makes it feel like a waste to donate because you could be getting paid for it
      • tshaddox 17 hours ago
        No more of a waste than, say, any monetary donation.
        • eru 11 minutes ago
          Well, a bit more of a waste, because monetary donations are generally more efficient.
    • riversflow 16 hours ago
      Yeah, same. Illegal to pay donors here too. I’ve donated multiple gallons, kinda felt it was my duty as a driver on the road… but at some point I came in to donate and got told they were extra short staffed and I’d have to wait at least an hour. The clinics already have terrible hours that seem to mostly cater to retirees, never open in the evenings and most clinics are closed on the weekends too, the one nearest me that I was going to stopped opening on the weekend entirely, meaning I had to travel quite a ways. I’m basically poor and the cost in terms of time, travel, energy and food is not insignificant. Meanwhile the high level staff making the cuts to the clinics have secretaries to reply to the emails they solicit from donors. Even though I sent them a long, insightful email, with followups, about my detailing why they are struggling as a young millennial (supposedly an audience they are trying to attract), and after all of it I get phone calls from the vampires minimum twice a week every week, sometimes every day.
  • ParacelsusOfEgg 18 hours ago
    I think there might be some confusion by commenters in this thread about selling blood in the US.

    Blood can be separated out into its plasma, red blood cells, and platelets by an apheresis machine. The machine cycles the unused components back into the donar so only one component is donated.

    Blood plasma (~55% by volume), the amber colored water and disolved proteins, can be sold. Red blood cells (~44% by volume), and platelets (~1% by volume) can NOT be sold in the US by donars.

    Most blood drives that you'd experience at school or in the workplace takes whole blood (so there is no need for the apheresis machine) which is more exhausting than if just one of the components was taken.

    Source: an O+ blood donar with 50+ pints donated.

    • smallpipe 18 hours ago
      Didn't expect to see Thor mentioned so much in a comment about blood donations
    • hamaluik 14 hours ago
      Plasma can be used outside of prophylactics as well, I don't think this is accounted for in the article (human plasma is used in cosmetics for example).

      A lot of plasma is also separated out of whole-blood donations and manufactured into all sorts of things. I don't know all of the end-user financial ramifications of this, but hospitals absolutely do pay (sometimes quite a pretty penny depending on rarity of antigens and antibodies) for RBCs and platelets (and plasma) from suppliers like the American Red Cross.

      Purely anecdotally, I have heard stories of some donors being compensated extremely handsomely for their regular donations because of the rarity of their blood attributes - even being flown across the country and wined and dined to obtain their blood on top of thousands of dollars per donation.

    • bee_rider 12 hours ago
      Am I misremembering that, also, donating plasma for whatever reason tends to be much rougher on the donor for some reason?
      • sgerenser 8 hours ago
        I don’t think that’s correct. Specifically because it’s easier on the donor, it’s allowed to be done much more frequently than whole blood donation.
    • Symmetry 16 hours ago
      Mostly because its a lot harder to acquire an infection via plasma, though there are some diseases like Hepatitis E that can be transmitted that way.
  • weinzierl 19 hours ago
    0.5% of all goods is still a lot and much more than most people would have expected.

    Also interesting: "In 2023, total US goods exports were $2,045 billion, almost exactly ⅔ of all exports, including services."

    • Havoc 19 hours ago
      It’s because the US has a massive blood for money industry while other countries explicitly ban payments.

      That distorts supply/demand between countries

      • sidewndr46 18 hours ago
        if I understand correctly you can only sell "plasma" which is just one component of blood
        • orwin 17 hours ago
          And less dangerous to the donor to harvest I think.
  • ilikecakeandpie 18 hours ago
    Behind the Bastards recently did a two part podcast on the blood industry in America, particularly how lack of regulation and taking advantage of the incarcerated (focused on Arkansas) led to the spread of blood borne illnesses and how it killed a lot of people. I had no idea blood was such big business and that it was in our top 10 domestic exports

    https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/part-one-how-tainted-h...

    • tvier 18 hours ago
      > and that it was in our top 10 domestic exports

      Note that a main point of the article is that it is not in the US' top 10 exports

      • ilikecakeandpie 18 hours ago
        Well one of these has to be incorrect then as this was said it was the US's ninth largest export

        https://app.podscribe.com/episode/130950753

        • abound 18 hours ago
          Like the GP said, the whole topic of this article is getting an accurate figure, and how the 2%/9th largest figure is incorrect.
          • jknoepfler 17 hours ago
            Incorrect, yes, but to be fair .67% and 2% occupy the same "wow, that's a large proportion of the economy" order-or-magnitude band of surprise (for me). Obviously not as charismatic/sensational, but still significant and surprising (to me).
        • tekla 17 hours ago
          BtB is not a serious news source, its mostly ragebait.
    • jonginn 1 hour ago
      It's a big scandal in the UK. Over 30,000 people were infected with HIV or Hep C from US blood stock in the 70s and 80s. The UK Government will be paying almost £12bn as compensation, which to put into context is over a third of our education budget.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-48596605

      • eru 9 minutes ago
        > The UK Government will be paying almost £12bn as compensation, which to put into context is over a third of our education budget.

        Presumably that's a one time compensation, and you are talking about the annual recurring education budget?

    • make3 16 hours ago
      I remember reading that the presence of for profit prisons in an area increases the rates of incarceration in that area. So many of them have heavily under minimum wage, almost free forced work, and now blood harvesting. Modern USA is so dystopian in a lot of places
  • declan_roberts 19 hours ago
    Do we really have 38% of Europe's BLOOD as a bargaining chip in trade agreements? This does not bode well for them.
    • abxyz 19 hours ago
      it's outsourcing by choice rather than necessity. Europe can grow its own blood. The much more permissive laws in the U.S. which cause an oversupply for local usage mean it's cheaper to import it. During periods of high demand that exceed current supplies, countries are typically able to increase donations substantially to cover the shortfall, and long term, could pursue similar laws to the U.S. There is no prospect of blood being a meaningful bargaining chip in a trade war.
      • Sanzig 18 hours ago
        Yep, blood donation infrastructure isn't like an oil pipeline or a refinery. Sure, it'll be painful for a little while, but it doesn't take nearly as long to set up, especially if there's an urgent shortage motivating a country to move fast.
        • debo_ 18 hours ago
          Yes, all the blood economy needs is a shot in the arm.
    • riskable 17 hours ago
      Blood from US

      Sweat from China

      Tears from everywhere else

    • layer8 18 hours ago
      Denying the blood would increase the US trade deficit though, so it would cut both ways.
    • pkaye 14 hours ago
      In the past the WHO recommended countries don't compensate for blood or plasma donations. The following countries countries decided to still allow compensation for plasma donations for drug products: Austria, the Czech Republic, Germany, and the US.

      Its just that the US has the largest population of these five countries. And generally the rest of the countries outside the five don't get sufficient plasma donations to make the drug products needed for their patients and have to import it.

      The plasma can be separated out to different products to treat various diseases many of them genetic.

      https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/approved-blood-...

      The only ones to hold accountable are the WHO and those countries that followed their advice. If more countries paid for plasma donations there would be more supply of these drug products available.

    • tomjen3 18 hours ago
      You also have most of our digital services.

      Use either as a bargening chip and you are likely to lose them.

    • keybored 18 hours ago
      People could just donate more. Just make a campaign that you can Stick it to Trump and Help Your Country and you would get an influx of plasma.

      As long as the demand is not steep. Since you can do it only a dozen or so times each year according to recommendations. (American Red Cross recommends every 28 days; private donors are not beholden to that)

    • busterarm 19 hours ago
      Globalization has led to most countries deluding themselves about supply chain vulnerabilities for a long time. COVID was the first shock. Now Trump's tariffs are the second.
      • kspacewalk2 19 hours ago
        However, I think people grossly overestimate the degree to which this state of affairs is static. If the supply chain shows itself to be vulnerable, economies often adjust quite easily. Even when it's not "easy", like natural gas in Europe post-2022, it's still very much doable without too much hullabaloo and frozen seniors.

        Point being: if it no longer makes sense to import 38% of blood from the US or whatever, it'll be imported from elsewhere or made locally, and that's pretty much the whole story. This is true of most goods and services, though not all.

        • busterarm 16 hours ago
          That's only really true for raw materials and assemblies.

          Chip production is the very obvious and real hole in this argument. It'll take half to a full decade to get new chip fabs up to what TSMC's Taiwan fabs are doing now.

          Quality steel production and machining is going to take time and investment as well.

  • fmsf 19 hours ago
    Fascinating article, fun that even blood has tariffs https://www.searchtariff.com/?q=blood

    I wonder when we are going to start seeing proper effects of all these tariffs in the market.

    Disclaimer: I am the founder of DataLinks which in turn powers the searchtariff website

  • andai 15 hours ago
    The article links to this, which I also enjoyed.

    "Please show lots of digits"

    https://dynomight.net/digits/

    • philipwhiuk 10 hours ago
      I enjoyed it, but I'm not convinced by it.
  • aezell 19 hours ago
    Bummed there wasn't one vampire joke or pun or allusion in this entire article.
    • panzagl 16 hours ago
      Or Garth Marenghi quote.
      • messe 5 minutes ago
        Not even in the subtext.
  • traktorn 4 hours ago
    I love Dynomights writing. I highly recommend subscribing to his newsletter.
  • aeternum 16 hours ago
    Excellent writeup. Is there any aggregator that focuses on "let's look at the actual data" articles like this?
    • archermarks 15 hours ago
      Dynomight (the author of this article) does a lot of articles like this, and if you enjoyed it you'll enjoy their other content.
  • thimkerbell 10 hours ago
    I don't understand why an otherwise reputable forum (HN) would be so tolerant of meaning-uninferrable clickbait link titles. Sentience, posters, sentience.
  • makmanalp 9 hours ago
    This is my time to shine - I know the cause of this mistake. Like the article mentions, international trade is specified using the HS (Harmonized System) encoding mechanism.

    Now, product groups for which data is most frequently and easily available is the 4-digit level, which is quite broad. If you look at the code 3002 in the HS classification system (of which there are many versions but we'll ignore that for now), you'll find a category, succinctly named:

    > "Human blood; animal blood prepared for therapeutic, prophylactic or diagnostic uses; antisera, other blood fractions and immunological products, whether or not modified or obtained by means of biotechnological processes; vaccines, toxins, cultures of micro-organisms (excluding yeasts) and similar products; cell cultures, whether or not modified:"

    https://hts.usitc.gov/search?query=3002

    People new to trade data, especially programmers, with some hubris, tend to think this is way too long a category name to fit in a title or dropbox, so they chop it at the semicolon and call it good, resulting in "Human Blood" or similar. Better data sources tend to shorten these based on the real world percentage of the subcategories, e.g. see here "Serums and vaccines":

    https://atlas.hks.harvard.edu/explore/treemap?exporter=count...

    If you search for 3002 (Serums and Vaccines) in the US's exports in 2023 you'll see the figure 1.58%:

    https://atlas.hks.harvard.edu/explore/treemap?exporter=count...

    Which seems to me to be how they arrived at that incorrect number - some other website showing comtrade / us trade data with bad category names.

    Lesson here: classification systems are hard.

  • ch33zer 12 hours ago
    Does anyone know of, when I give blood to the red cross or other charities can it end up getting sold for a profit, overseas or otherwise?
  • hlovdal 19 hours ago
    The podcast https://behindthebastards.com/ had two episodes about the surprisingly large export of blood (products) from USA. Spoiler alert, it is mainly rooted in exploitation of the insanely large prison population:

    https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236...

    https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236...

  • AlfredBarnes 19 hours ago
    A nice write up! Thanks for making it.

    I used to donate ever opportunity I could. I only stopped for medical reasons. I know there are a lot of companies that sell the blood, but it's still needed and can save a life.

  • femiagbabiaka 17 hours ago
    Plasma from teachers who don't get paid enough to cover the bills shipped to Europe. There's a great sci-fi novel in there.
  • caycep 16 hours ago
    Also - it might be worth looking in donations from Mex/canada. The anecdotal tidbit is that during Trump I with the border shenanigans and COVID, the drop in Mexican nationals crossing the border to donate blood/plasma (paid opportunities apparently), led to a nationwide shortage of derived products like IV IG infusions, etc. At least according to some of the Pharma reps that passed thru the office
  • morninglight 17 hours ago
    Market trends show this as a growing industry in the 2025 economy.

    https://www.cslplasma.com/be-rewarded

  • 11235813213455 16 hours ago
    I donate a lot to mosquitoes