Half-Baked Product

(weli.dev)

502 points | by weli 5 hours ago

57 comments

  • TrackerFF 6 minutes ago
    One important part of the story is in the very beginning: The founder’s motivation. To become wealthy.

    You see this in the startup world a lot. Founders with 5+ failed startups in different sectors, because said founder picked the fields mainly by doing some market analysis. Not domain expertise.

    There’s then a big mismatch between what the founder thinks is possible, and what the domain expert thinks is possible.

    The defense is of course that some people can do that - Musk did it, so why not?

    Another defense is that blindingly naïve optimism is sometimes needed to move the needle, as the concept “that can’t be done” simply doesn’t exist to some people.

    I’ve sat through some pitches like that, where it is very obvious that the founder/CEO has limited knowledge and expertise in what they’re pitching, where the product is limited, but their enthusiasm is off the charts.

  • sixtram 3 hours ago
    Oh, I'm glad I don't work in the oven business. We're just starting a stealth startup that's revolutionizing dishwashers, and the prototypes are amazing. They use less water, less detergent, and this weekend we're hoping to solve the last remaining issue: occasionally, they break glasses.
    • flowerbreeze 2 hours ago
      It sounds like you're joking, but I've long dreamed of a different type of dishwasher. One that washes instantly. I don't need it to fit more than a single plate at one time. Just put something in from one end, and out comes clean and dry plate on the other end. Like a car wash.

      I am quite certain these exist already large kitchens and I seem to remember one from a school diner from maybe 35 years ago, but I've always been wondering why they don't exist on smaller scale.

      • Waterluvian 1 hour ago
        Restaurant dishwashers use an enormous amount of water. They require a hot water supply that’s much hotter than residential heaters typically supply. They require a more complete manual pre-rinse and scrub. They only accept kitchenware that’s made for them and destroy the rest.

        Restaurants cycle dishes a lot during a single mealtime. Homes don’t. I don’t think “I can’t wait 2 hours” is typically a real problem.

        • Skwid 38 minutes ago
          Those I've used in the UK aren't so bad, they're cold fill only with a heating element in the sump. It takes maybe 15 minutes to fill and get up to temperature at the start of a shift, after that each cycle is ~2 minutes.

          The hot water is recirculated during the wash, the rinse uses fresh water from the tap with the excess going out an overflow. A little sump water gets replaced every cycle, but enough stays that it's back up to temperature before you've emptied and refilled it. There's also a small peristaltic pump to top up the detergent directly from the bottle.

          Not much benefit in a home setting unless you fancy having it hot and ready 24/7 though.

          • swiftcoder 6 minutes ago
            They also have the clever system of standardised, removable baskets. Need to increase dishwashing throughput? yank the clean basket, line them up on the counter to dry, and run a new basket through

            This is probably the one trick consumer dishwashers should emulate

        • iterateoften 30 minutes ago
          Those Restaurant “dishwashers” are sanatizers. A dishwasher is a person in a restaurant. They are the ones removing and getting the dish clean.
          • Waterluvian 15 minutes ago
            Dishwashers? How dare you. We preferred to be called “Sanitation Engineers - Dishwashing Division” Even had bossman put it on our paystub (he was so tolerant of us kids. I think he was just happy that we were into buffoonery and not meth).
      • Leonard_of_Q 24 minutes ago
        > I've always been wondering why they don't exist on smaller scale.

        Because they need space, they need even more nasty chemicals than domestic dishwashers, they need a stack of trays to load the dishes on and a crew to load and unload them.

        If you want a dishwasher which doesn't require unloading after use you can get 2 of them, one of which is "clean", the other "dirty" or washing. When the "dirty" one is full you turn it on and let it wash while you take whatever you need from the "clean" one. Once the formerly-dirty one has finished it's cycle the roles are reversed and it becomes the "clean" one.

      • mhb 15 minutes ago
        I've dreamed of a dishwasher for people who prioritize clean dishes quickly and quietly over the incremental savings from using asymptotically less water or energy. See also low flush toilets and clothes washing machines.
      • aequitas 24 minutes ago
        What you really want is 2 dishwashers! That way you never have to unload the dishwasher because you alternate your dishes between the two. The one that has just completed the cleaning cycle has now become a cupboard with the clean dishes and the other one becomes the dirty dish storage and vice versa.
      • afandian 1 hour ago
        I don't know the first thing about dishwashers, but it seems obvious to me.

        The cycle-to-volume ratio is as bad as it could possibly be. Conventional dishwashers recirculate water as they wash and rinse. I imagine there's an mx + c formula to how much water is needed (c = enough water to prime the pump or whatever). So compared to a normal size load, you'd be wasting that constant amount of water.

        The wash is also likely going to follow mx+c (c = time for grease to break down, time to rinse, time to dry etc). You can wait a few hours for a whole set of crockery. Can you wait a few hours for a single plate?

        Commercial "passthrough" dishwashers work very differently. Manual mechanical action with a spray, plus a quick wash, sterilise and rinse. At that point why not wash your single plate by hand?

      • askvictor 1 hour ago
        I've long dreamed of a dishwasher that can detect when you remove the (cleaned) dishes from it, and presents a display saying 'load dishes' or something like that. And after finishing a cycle, says 'unload dishes'. Should be pretty easy to achieve with some load cells in the feet, but haven't seen any like that.
        • Sheeny96 45 minutes ago
          We had this at my old work, except it wasn't a display, it was a circular piece of paper with "clean" on one side and "dirty" on the other. When it was done, you rotate the paper so it was clean side up. Should we have gone for series A? It was a pretty great MVP after all, albeit manual, but automation of the paper flipping would of course come on the second iteration
          • klondike_klive 5 minutes ago
            I would for sure be that rookie who is paralysed with indecision over whether to read "clean" as an adjective or an imperative. Is it telling me that it's clean or that it needs cleaning?
          • Skwid 34 minutes ago
            There's also the upgrade path of 2 dishwashers with a single 'clean' token moved between the two. Cupboards are an legacy product holding back progress.
        • briHass 1 hour ago
          Many modern ones have a door open sensor that allows for the dishwasher to display that dishes are clean after a cycle until the door is opened and fully closed again.

          That doesn't help, however, if users are lazy and don't unload the dishwasher after opening it to grab a clean plate or whatever.

          It's a nice feature that can be added with existing sensors and one line of logic in the uC. Another one I noticed recently is garage door openers with the photo transmitter/receiver ('beam') to stop the door if someone blocks it can use that same beam to turn on the light if broken when the door is up. Handy if entering a dark garage from outside.

          • TowerTall 47 minutes ago
            I used to have two dishwashers. One for clean. One for dirty.
      • chasd00 47 minutes ago
        The answer is obviously paper plates and plastic silverware /s
    • quijoteuniv 17 minutes ago
      Oh, I’m glad I don’t work in the oven or dishwasher business. We’re just starting a stealth startup that’s revolutionizing coding assistants, and the prototypes are amazing. They write code faster, explain it better, and this weekend we’re hoping to solve the last remaining issue: occasionally, they deploy to production.
    • pkorzeniewski 10 minutes ago
      I've heard rumours that your dishwasher is so advanced it constantly upgrades firmware by itself to use even less water and detergent over time, but after a while it starts behaving in unpredictable manor, like refusing to start at all, open door midway wash, beep at random or forget to apply detergent and the only fix is to reset firmware to the initial state - is that true?
    • moffkalast 2 hours ago
      I hope it's not the approach of using less water by not rinsing properly in the end, so people have to either eat soap or rinse everything manually afterwards, wasting far more water. I swear Bosch is so terrible at this.
      • afandian 2 hours ago
        The innovation here is clearly edible soap.

        And the 'less water' claim is technically correct, but it doesn't mention the decamethylcyclopentasiloxane. Just because it's complicated to spell, you understand.

        • broken-kebab 30 minutes ago
          >edible soap

          Sodium bicarbonate residue won't kill our customers, so consider it technically edible. The issue of taste and efficiency will be approached after MVP

        • jodrellblank 2 hours ago
          from L'Affaire Siloxane? ( https://mceglowski.substack.com/p/laffaire-siloxane ) (subtitle: "How antiperspirant fumes nearly got NASA to evacuate the space station")
          • afandian 54 minutes ago
            Wow!

            (No, from dry-cleaning)

        • pyrale 1 hour ago
          Edible soap?! The solution is clearly edible dishes!
          • afandian 55 minutes ago
            Too late, already been done!

            https://stroodles.co.uk/collections

            I bought some edible cups out of curiosity a few years back. Nice for coffee. I did end up eating them all, although some of them were still dry at the time of consumption.

            I think edible soap has better behaviour-adjusted shelf-life here.

      • tdeck 2 hours ago
        Perhaps a match for the UK market? From what I've read they often don't rinse the soap off of dishes there (I wish I were making this up).
        • afandian 53 minutes ago
          Maybe it's the cause of our "bad teeth".

          (I heard the rumour too. But no-one I know fails to rinse the "washing up liquid" (as we call it) off their plates)

        • lmm 38 minutes ago
          If there was enough soap residue to matter you'd notice the taste.
      • sfn42 55 minutes ago
        I recently learned that you should add detergent for the pre-wash rinse as well. May dishwashers have a separate pocket next to the detergent pocket, often there isn't even a lid on it or the lid has openings so the detergent falls out as soon as you close the door. If they don't have the symbolic pocket you can just pour some extra detergent anywhere, like just spill some outside the main pocket or pour it into the bottom.

        This allows the pre-wash cycle to get rid of most of the grease and stuff before the main cycle so the main cycle is more effective and the water is cleaner so the final rinse works better too.

      • ericpauley 2 hours ago
        Do you use rinse aid?
  • lilerjee 1 minute ago
    Interesting story. This seems a true story of the author? The author understands the characters of the people in the process of business. Understanding reality is not easy.
  • groundzeros2015 2 minutes ago
    > Engineering stops trying to build a good oven and starts adding buttons and features. Nobody made that decision. It just happened

    I’ve found that most people hate making tradeoffs. They don’t recognize that the things they do buy and like don’t do everything.

    So If you focus too much on a customer or worse an internal stakeholder who hasn’t designed or built things, it can became a Homer Simpson designing a car situation.

  • marvinstrauch 2 hours ago
    Uncomfortably accurate, but a fantastic read. Somewhere between the candle button and "It doesn't rotate clockwise" I stopped laughing and started remembering.
    • sgallant 40 minutes ago
      Agreed. This could be a story about my last startup... A good reminder.
  • xg15 1 hour ago
    I found the part about the engineer's motivation interesting:

    > The founder offers [the engineer] 20% of the company and total freedom to build the perfect oven. The salary isn’t great, but there’s the promise: [...] And something more important than money: he’ll finally get to build the oven of his dreams.

    That turned out to be a complete lie. Not necessarily a deliberate one - I think it's quite possible both the engineer and the founder were initially believing it - but it was still a situation that never existed in that way.

    Essentially, they weren't aware of all the constraints that existed for their oven design and then mistook a situation where the constraints were unknown with one where there were no constraints at all and they could just build whatever they wanted. But the real constraints were set by the market, investors and corporate customers and those were already there before they even stated the company.

    (I don't think it means you have to submit to those slavishly and can never bring anything of your actual vision into your products, but it feels naive to be completely unaware of them.)

  • ogoffart 2 hours ago
    Similar story here.

    Even though our ovens actually work fine, the problem is a new competitor: OpenOven. Their oven is completely free, and on the Italian forum everyone talks about them. It has even way more buttons than ours (most don't work very well, but the community loves it).

    We almost sold to MrBaguette, one of the biggest bakery chains in the world, as they wanted new oven supplier for their next generation of kitchen. Their chef tried our oven and loved it. But in the end they went with the pricier one from Corporate Oven, because some VP thought we were too small and worried we wouldn't supply them in 20 years.

  • clan 3 hours ago
    This was such a funny and refreshing read. Especially to find on this VC fuelled forum.

    There was so much truth in this on a Dilbertesque level. If you can learn from this you are winning.

    I am not saying "VC bad". I am saying it is a sharp-edged tool which you need to wield with great care. This humorous piece really points out the pitfalls.

    Worth the read - do not just lurk here in the comment section (as I usually do!)

    • smugglerFlynn 3 hours ago
      Sadly it is not unique to VC. Many in-house products of large companies follow exact same story: sunk cost fallacy, investing in expectation management instead of the product itself, risky and expensive bets dressed as 'MVPs', riding on perpetual promises etc.
      • 6LLvveMx2koXfwn 2 hours ago
        Yeah because developers never wrote a line in POC which made it to prod ;)
      • pockybum522 2 hours ago
        Agreed, I have no experience with VC anything, but I was still nodding along the whole time as I was reading.
    • alias_neo 2 hours ago
      Interesting you found this funny. I didn't find it funny at all, my response at the end was somewhere between a sigh and a gasp.

      - Mario

  • hitekker 18 minutes ago
    > When he gets home at night, he argues for hours on Italian forums about which type of oven is best. The Italian forums are, to him, the ultimate source of oven-truth.

    This detail, among several others, is subtle but deeply fateful.

  • move-on-by 53 minutes ago
    I remember sitting in on a sales meeting early in my career. I kept quiet, but afterwards I complained to my manager that they were selling features that didn’t exist and conflicted with core concepts of the product. My manager told me that was how sales were made. I left the company not long after, I was already disgruntled prior to that discussion.

    I’ve seen the same thing everywhere I go. I don’t have the disposition to be in sales, but I periodically daydream of making huge commissions by straight up bullshitting people. There seems to be no downside.

    • chasd00 43 minutes ago
      I work in consulting and have been in many projects where the client was sold promises and features that don’t exist in reality. If I had a firm I would have a rule that whoever sells a project worth > $5M would also be responsible for delivering it.
      • _matt_ 22 minutes ago
        And consequently, you'd most likely have no projects worth > $5M :)
        • germinalphrase 5 minutes ago
          Or link sales commission to delivery success, and have no sales people...
  • avsn 2 hours ago
    Too close to the home, ouch. It’s such a microcosm of things. I can imagine people reading this going “ah, the founder was right, it’s those damn nerds” or “at least WE generated sales” and so on. The more you do startups the more it seems that the time is indeed a flat circle.
  • anonu 29 minutes ago
    > When Everything Is Urgent, Nothing Is

    The most resonant line for me. This line for me is about how good project management meets team culture. You want a high performant team: one that remains focused and motivated - but the goals are carrots, not sticks.

  • gherkinnn 1 hour ago
    > A month later, Mario leaves the company. [...] In the retro, it gets written down as a “learning.”

    That hurts and exemplifies everything I hate about the industry. Humans lost on a Kanban board, abstracted away and covered in business speak.

  • baud9600 8 minutes ago
    Daft! And very strangely true. I recognised several moments and events in the story
  • abraxas_ 17 minutes ago
    This was an absolute delight to read. I have tried to build so many ovens in my life…
  • dzonga 1 hour ago
    you know the pamphlets passed to soldiers before war.

    your article needs to be passed to engineers & I guess everyone before graduating college.

    in all the satire - what our industry forgot is - how did people build/fund companies before Venture Capital ?

  • tiohijazi 27 minutes ago
    I made an account just to reply to this post. Happened to me. Word per word. From the start until the end. Exactly like it is.
  • serhack_ 3 hours ago
    It's flabbergasting how this story is close to the reality. Bookmarked, I would love to see it printed.
  • thevillagechief 2 hours ago
    Brilliant! And this isn't really just about startups. Large companies are operating the exact same way.
  • mpetrovich 2 hours ago
    The classic solution-in-search-of-a-problem.

    If the founder had started by talking with people in the problem space, he could have discovered what problems were actually worth solving before investing any money and effort into a product.

    Everything after that happened were downstream effects of creating something without a defensible reason why and for whom.

  • reactordev 3 hours ago
    This is so well written. What would really be icing on the cake would be for Mario to join another oven company that had the same premise (or similar vein) where he got to experience that all over again. Either way, there’s always a starry eyed graduate that thinks this is my ticket.
  • ArcHound 3 hours ago
    Brilliant. What I liked are the characters - it's hard to make every character motivation reasonable and so well communicated.

    What I think is a bit of a missed opportunity is for the product to fail with "the pizza|cake|pastry is half-baked" and so customers still have to do the rest of the job anyway.

  • SilverSlash 57 minutes ago
    This was such a great read! Thank you! Too bad Oven Inc never got more headcount. Otherwise the engineers could've had a day hackathon week while the managers and founder went to a retreat for a strategy offsite.
  • sebastianconcpt 1 hour ago
    I was waiting for the plot twist and it didn't come, so its genre is: horror.
  • Angostura 2 hours ago
    Reading this made me hyperventilate
  • alansaber 1 hour ago
    Entertaining, very AI prose though.
    • plasticeagle 29 minutes ago
      It sounds very slightly AI in some places, but I think this is an example of AI tropes turning up in human writing.

      Which is a shame, because it makes those constructs less pleasant to read than they used to be. If you squint, and pretend AI doesn't exist (imagine!), then maybe you might be able to enjoy them again.

      It is a little bit too long though.

    • aetherspawn 42 minutes ago
      Disagree, I assumed it was a 10 year old story because it was written in the personable style of the old internet…
    • weli 56 minutes ago
      Really? Didn't use an llm other than to do a quick grammar check because english is not my first language.
      • Planktonne 4 minutes ago
        It's worth checking that your LLM actually did just do a quick grammar check, because you've got really quit a lot of LLM tells in the prose.

        If it didn't make more changes than you're aware of, then you should be aware that some features of your style are common amongst LLMs, and over-use of them will alienate some percentage of your audience (even if unfairly).

        Key ones to look out for:

        - Staccato prose: repeated runs of short sentences (e.g. "The founder nods. He gets it. He gets all of it.") - Negative pivots: anything with the structure of '!X; Y' (e.g. 'it’s not that nobody saw it: it’s that every week something jumped ahead of it')

        These are valid linguistic features, but if you use them a lot, it sounds like AI writing, and people are wary of AI writing (because of the tidal wave of malicious, spamming & extractive actors using it). It will impact your audience.

      • alentodorov 42 minutes ago
        doesnt sound ai at all to me. great read.
    • Sheeny96 39 minutes ago
      I disagree, this read very non-AI prose to me. No "its not x - it's y", or em dashes etc.
      • mold_aid 26 minutes ago
        "It’s not that the engineers are getting slower: it’s that every new button has to coexist with all the previous buttons."

        I thought it might be intentional though? The first half reads very non-slop, and it just kind of inches its way in as the situation falls apart

        • mold_aid 22 minutes ago
          nvm author explains in the comment directly below this one, lol
  • saadatq 1 hour ago
    Has anyone ever experienced the alternative? to building products from scratch, growing a business, without the drama?
    • groundzeros2015 14 minutes ago
      The only way I’ve seen it happen is to not raise money and build it yourself.

      These kinds of companies make hundreds of thousands or even millions a year. But it’s too small to hear about them.

    • __s 35 minutes ago
      I did at peerdb
      • saadatq 32 minutes ago
        Sai? What do you think was the difference?
  • sbinnee 59 minutes ago
    Wow I was laughing internally. I couldn’t dare to laugh out loud because this story is too real to me. The moment I noticed that I just had to look back my life. Good read
  • nostratas 3 hours ago
    This one hits a little too close to home. I left my company around 9 months ago due to being "Mario" at my old company. It was a good decision because it ended up being a sinking ship. I wish I left much sooner, but I didn't know the red flags at the time. An expensive lesson for me
    • denis-stable 1 hour ago
      Do you mind sharing why it was expensive lesson?
      • nostratas 1 hour ago
        I think the opportunity cost for not moving to a different gig really hurt me, since AI/LLMs were just about to explode at the time I noticed the red flags. I chose to stay because I strongly believed in the mission of my last company (aka really wanted to make that perfect oven), and had some misguided sense of loyalty. I ended up staying a few years.

        A wiser version of myself would have cut my losses after at most one year, or much sooner, especially after noticing the red flags. This is something I'm keeping in mind for my next gig.

        • dijksterhuis 57 minutes ago
          learned a similar lesson at last company. should have left after six months as "lead" engineer (of two people, not really much to lead there... which is related to why i crashed and burned out, funnily enough)

          i was definitely the another Engineer in my story.

  • mishellaneous 3 hours ago
    for me, the moral of the story is that it's easier to promise things than to deliver them. or, engineering was the bottleneck. in my experience, this is not particular to start-ups, or even software engineering.

    why does this happen though? i think it could be due to short-term thinking. like buying things with a credit card: you get the shiny new thing immediately, but the payment is diluted over time. likewise, once the sale is made, you may feel the reward immediately (though i guess it depends on the exact nature of the deal), but the work that will have to be done, will be done over time.

    also, it's no wonder that the founder, or, outside start-ups, the marketing department, which specializes in promising impossible things, manages to evade the blame...

    • skydhash 1 hour ago
      Because engineering is where ideas get materialized in reality. And reality has a surprising amount of constraints, unlike imagination. It’s “draw the rest of the horse” turned to eleven.
    • ares623 2 hours ago
      > engineering was the bottleneck

      to the Amazon river everything and anything will be a bottleneck

  • m3kw9 9 minutes ago
    Every feature you add to you product really explodes the amount of new states you have to take care of, in addition to the risk of diverting the core product vision
  • satisfice 19 minutes ago
    This is inkblot test. Some will read it and see fundamental irrationality. Others will read it and say “it could have worked out if a couple of things had gone their way.”

    The story could be change with just a few sentences in the middle that would turn it into the founding myth of how Globoven took 100% of the market for energy efficient portable emergency ovens for NATO military use.

  • imjonse 2 hours ago
    While the majority of comments are absolutely right in recognizing and lamenting such situations plaguing our industry, let's not forget this is an ultimate first world problem. It can be stressful and frustrating but we are a privileged bunch to be able to call this 'pain'.
    • ludamad 1 hour ago
      Startups and this kind of business trap are not unique to the first world. As well, your comment is sort of generic isn't it? I could imagine it on virtually every post here
    • groundzeros2015 12 minutes ago
      What? Bro, this is our life.

      You don’t have to be beaten and starving to have a perspective and story to tell.

    • micromacrofoot 1 hour ago
      it's a more complex version of what happens in the third world too, it's not about class it's about people
  • vjsrinivas 1 hour ago
    Great story. Reminded me what my professional nightmare would look like. But, I think at the end it started to thin out its allegorical premise when it started including SWE terms like Kanban and retros.
  • AJRF 2 hours ago
    If I didn't laugh i'd cry.
  • certyfreak 1 hour ago
    Well written and it perfectly describes reality, it got me hooked and nodding from start to finish.
  • HelloNurse 3 hours ago
    Brilliant autobiography.
  • orliesaurus 3 hours ago
    This was actually so good to read. It really reminded me of so many of my past experiences at startups.
  • sscaryterry 4 hours ago
    Wow, this is so damn close to truth :)
    • k7peak 3 hours ago
      I gave up, how did this make it to page 1 jeez.
      • weli 3 hours ago
        I've been experimenting with writing longer-form content. I do agree the main point could be condensed a lot and I'm not the a great writer by far. This is kind of a rant and really cathartic for me to write after working more than 5 years on startups. Just wanted to share it.
        • edu 3 hours ago
          I read it full and I loved it and bookmarked it.

          It resonates with my personal experience, and your writing style is fresh and dynamic.

          Thanks for sharing it, and it deserves to be on the front page and #1.

        • IggleSniggle 36 minutes ago
          I loved it. It was cathartic to read, too. It's really a rather short story. There's no accounting for taste.
        • bravetraveler 2 hours ago
          Glad you did share, really enjoyed this... and I've never worked at a startup. Rings true to my hollowed corporate soul. The main difference: your peers might think they're founders; tend to forget they were acqui-hired.
        • ChrisMarshallNY 2 hours ago
          I enjoyed it, but it is uncomfortably realistic.

          Some folks want to gripe about everything. Life's too short to worry about them. They need to live in the world they make; not me.

        • jaapz 2 hours ago
          It's fine, don't worry about it. It's hard for me to read long form on a computer and I read your entire story.

          You can't please everyone

        • otherme123 1 hour ago
          On another post from today, titled "Mystery identity of 'Green Boots' climber is finally solved after DNA test", aparently the TLDR is the name of the dead man. The rest of the article explaining how, when, why, with whom the man was there, for some people, is cruft, a total waste of reading time.
        • drunkboxer 2 hours ago
          I loved every paragraph
        • telchior 1 hour ago
          You're at the least a good writer. It's a lot like music (or any other artform). No matter how good the result, even if it's utterly sublime, there will be a group who doesn't enjoy it.
        • achenet 1 hour ago
          Personally, I really liked both your writing and the fact that you took the time to flesh out the main point.

          Thanks for taking the time to write this up and share it ^_^

      • realo 30 minutes ago
        I would guess you are in Sales ...
      • vultour 2 hours ago
        Do you need a 7-second TikTok summary?
      • worik 3 hours ago
        I loved it.

        Different tastes

      • ares623 3 hours ago
        Not enough "key insight", "smoking gun", "this closes the gap", "kicker" huh.
      • bayindirh 3 hours ago
        I mean, it's read time is 20 minutes at most. I don't think it's long or tasteless or anything.
  • Mizza 2 hours ago
    Ouch, that hits close to home, and it seems like it does for a lot of others out there as well.

    So what's the solution? Is there a playbook that avoids these pitfalls, or is it just the cost of the spin. Ideally, something early engineers can point to when we see non-technical founders falling into familiar traps.

    • brickers 34 minutes ago
      My personal take:

      - you need aligned incentives across the board. Sales and accounts mustn’t promise what the company can’t deliver

      - people need to defend their area of expertise whilst listening to what others are saying about theirs. For me this boils down to a division between technical and business focussed. Techies need to push for non-client facing technical improvements without making everyone ignore them every time they say “technical debt”, and they need to accept that sometimes you just build shit to get business through the books. Sales/accounts need to accept that sometimes the build budget is taken up with mysterious technical drives that will be worth it. When I say “must accept” I mean accept that it must happen some percentage of the time - each case still needs to be backed up by a business case.

      - ultimately this needs to come from the top - founder(s) must balance these facts and drive it through the whole organisation, and in the article they didn’t

    • weli 1 hour ago
      If someone has the answer I'd like to know as well. I think the most important question to ask yourself is: Where did the story go sideways? At what point what character could have prevented the disaster?

      For me there is no right answer. Maybe the engineer should have been more pushy with what things not to add. Maybe the founder entrepreneur should have been realistic. Maybe sales should have not had to promise things that were not developed yet. But to each of those there is a counter-argument of why that needed to be done in that moment.

      Take it as a mental exercise.

      • lelanthran 27 minutes ago
        > Where did the story go sideways?

        When they didn't iterate on PMF with a niche client.

      • dijksterhuis 51 minutes ago
        > Where did the story go sideways? At what point what character could have prevented the disaster?

        for me the company should never have existed in the first place. and that lies with the founder. starts with them. falls on them.

        i'm biased i suppose because my part in the "10%" part of my story was finding out just how little research anyone actually did... they all just wanted to play the role of important businessmen, big brain dev, co-founder etc. etc.

        thank you for writing this. i'm still trying to come back from crashing and burning at that place. i might read this a few more times as it felt like my story too. the another Engineer part touched me. that's who i was in my story. it hurt.

        edit -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48774444 hits the nail on the head with their last bullet point. bad leadership innit.

    • adithyaharish 2 hours ago
      [flagged]
  • user1338 2 hours ago
    this is the best thing i've read in a while. it's both triggering and prophetic at the same time. really captures the essence of what happens in startups. well done.
  • Galus 1 hour ago
    A legend in the making.
  • richardfey 3 hours ago
    The more I read into it, the more pain memory flashbacks I got. Bravo
  • ssenssei 3 hours ago
    my favorite blog post of all time... this should go in a museum
  • abrookewood 3 hours ago
    Brilliant. Brutal.
  • rcgs 2 hours ago
    Enjoyed this – very entertaining!
  • phikappa 2 hours ago
    I mean sure, but look, I will not make the same mistakes.

    Also my context is totally different. And MY oven concept has none of the drawbacks of their oven and Claude tells me I'm definitely on to something.

    I'm off to the notary to sign the docs for Oven.ai (got the domain for only 300k!!) See ya on my yacht!

  • ac50hz 2 hours ago
    s/oven/cms/g
  • virajk_31 2 hours ago
    No cap
  • Jeff9James 2 hours ago
    i am completely new to this stuff (just made a mobile app). thanks for explaining (in 5 year-old kiddo style) how funding and corpo slop works. WOWOW
  • Xotic007 3 hours ago
    [dead]
  • bickov 3 hours ago
    [dead]
  • burnout_eng 2 hours ago
    [dead]
  • Chyzwar 3 hours ago
    This is such European take on startups. Tesla was making shitty overpriced status symbols/value signalling cars and selling FSD for 10k knowing very well that it will not work with car hardware. It took them 10 years to "fake it until you make it stage".

    If founder keep iterating and hyping his ovens with enough capital he could become big player in oven maker space and disrupting industry. Learning from this article was that he lacked capital and vision.

    • contrast 2 hours ago
      I'd argue the spirit of entrepreneurialism and salesmanship in the story is more American!

      I've just been through this process. Very painful. SF based company, US founder.

      Same founder story - couldn't focus on customers, couldn't focus on product, always a shiny new idea to distract him from had just been decided or what needed to be decided. Each idea could be the thing that made the difference. Willing to work hard, very capable of talking a good game, not able to deliver.

      Tesla had a product that worked, was essentially first and best on the market, not that many models, not that many features. Focusing on the hype and gloss is ignoring a lot of substance. What even is the point of criticising a startup for its hype when its exactly what people want to hear and aligns to a lot of real, significant, ongoing research?

      "If the founder had capital and vision" is pretty much tautological. It's true but not particularly useful to know that people who have money and know what to do with it will probably succeed.

    • isoprophlex 2 hours ago
      weak minds can't comprehend this but indeed, this is the ultimate goal to reach in life: hyping shit up to out-con the conmen into giving you money so you can disrupt things.

      just pull harder on the vision bong, and grab some more of that sweet capital bro, or you're not gonna make it

      • Sheeny96 23 minutes ago
        Yeah bro like why would you just build what you want to your vision? Other people don't want that! Other people know what they want, just build what they want!