> However, the level of social media amplification around this incident has brought scrutiny that is out of proportion to SSL/TLS’s place in our business
Scrutiny is inversely proportional to bit complexity of the private keys they used. Without a failure to apologize or expose how it happened: a human mistake, process mistake, etc. this looks pretty bad on them.
> eMudhra’s global SSL/TLS infrastructure runs separately from its other operations. The company’s Global digital signature certificate (DSC), eSign, and other signing services, including those in India, its enterprise PKI Solutions (emCA, CertiNext platforms), emSigner eSignature Suite, and its identity and authentication solutions (SecurePass, emAS) are not affected and continue to operate as normal
Anyone relying on them with anything related to security or trust is playing Russian roulette at this point.
It was "multiple human errors". But yeah no matter what, in any case or exceptional circumstances, this thing was not supposed to be screwed up.
On Mozilla’s tracker, eMudhra said the keys were created on 30 April 2025 in a key generation ceremony, a recorded procedure in which keys are produced inside hardware security modules (HSMs), tamper-resistant devices built to hold keys. The keys were meant to be moved to data centres in the United States and Europe for customers needing data stored in those regions. To move them, the company added a step to ‘wrap’ each key, or encrypt it for transfer, and ‘unwrap’ it at the other end. eMudhra said a flaw in the software script created a second, weaker set of keys during this step, and because the two sets had similar names, staff used the weaker ones by mistake. It said human errors occurred at multiple steps.
source:
What's the eMudhra security scare that has rattled the internet?
Having worked around these types of devices and their interfaces, I doubt they intended to create weak keys.
It is more likely they had a script which placed a parameter in the wrong field, due to something like using positional arguments. Or they misread the documentation for some interface.
Still incompetence. And I would love to see my theory confirmed or refuted.
Yeah. I can't think of any development process where you wouldn't simply use a production grade key in development. In fact, that's exactly what we do in development with snake oil keys.
Generating a key with "4" was probably done as a joke, but also is insane to have ever lived outside some devs computer.
Unwrapped extraction is the kind of thing security by checkbox covers and process review might catch so it is never clear in a case like this that some party with the capability to influence the process didn't want keys intentionally weak to emulate unwrap.. Then someone else may have introduced the swap of keys that would never have been seen with keys that would (be forever) in a public scrutiny DB.
"out of proportion to SSL/TLS’s place in our business" is an insane comparison. They are saying they care so little about SSL/TLS to begin with that it's not fair.
It would be like me practicing surgery 1 hour a week and saying "well surgery only has a very small place in my 80-hour work week" in response to flagrant failure of medical care.
This is pretty normal in India unfortunately. Crony capitalism is the dominant business engine in the country, so pretty much any significant business, esp in regulated sectors like govt mandated services(which is the bulk of eMudhra's operations) is impossible to set up without significant bribes being paid.
As a consequence, these businesses are very well protected from normal market forces and are pretty much above the law. Had this incident not been an international one, they had a very good chance of getting away with it, and the people reporting this would have landed in jail.
This is 100% accurate. State run media would have squashed this article if it was not for an international incident response. They have federal laws that prevent such disclosures because it affects the national image and could cause social unrest.
It does, but I wonder how much of that phrasing is cultural.
When working with different businesses across the globe, I’ve noticed Indian correspondence to incidents tends to be more a show of strength even if it’s transparently obvious that there’s no merit to the content.
Whereas western European correspondence is often more apologetic and empathetic. Even if it might sound insincere to those affected.
But it’s all just words at the end of the day. It never means much unless the business is willing to back real change to mitigate similar issues in the future and resolve undisclosed existing problems. However there’s no way for us to know if this is happening or not.
I don't know if it's really specific to one culture. Look at US companies after they go through a lengthy legal saga, it's obvious they screwed up, they're paying fines or having to adhere to court-imposed consequences. Their press releases:
"We admit no wrongdoing. We are only settling to move past this. Our business is strong/secure/competent."
It's like the first rule you learn when you go into corporate communications is to never admit you did anything wrong or project anything other than confidence and correctness.
This is what I found regarding how it happened, but still not a full explanation - but there was some name confusion and obvious incompetence.
>According to eMudhra, proper strong keys were created in the HSM at the key ceremony on 30-04-2025. The script had been changed to test wrapping and unwrapping keys, because the intermediates were to be moved to data centres in the US and Europe, and a bug in that change created a second set of weak keys. The keys had almost identical names, and the weak ones were used for the certificate requests. The same request was signed by eMudhra's own root and sent to Sectigo, which cross-signed it. The strong keys never made it into any certificate (Bugzilla).
I wonder. Say I wanted to prevent something stupid like this from happening in the future. What would be a sensible check? The higher level authority doesn't see the private key itself, right? Just the certificate request. And I wouldn't want someone to manually inspect the keys to see that it looks random-ish. Perhaps there could be a small check script added to the generation of certificate requests that says "hey, your key a.) is mostly zeroes, b.) appears to be ASCII text, or c.) seems otherwise extremely non-random, please use -f to continue anyway".
Various Indian regulations (particularly around commerce and banking) require you to use India companies for solutions like the above. It gets worse when companies are "steered" by a regulator/compliance person who has a bias for a specific solutions provider.
For good or bad, thats by design. These is a significant portion of physical infrastructure associated with internet data flow. The only challenge governments face as of now is being able to segment the traffic to their wishes in its entirety.
Companies already control all the traffic flow on their infrastructure using end-point security solutions, the same can be extended at ISP level, and then Country level
Their Internet registry people also weaponized AS0 (zero) as a method to take networks off air via BGP RPKI for the ranges they're responsible for. There's been a number of situations where multinational companies who operate in India who are forced to use IPs from the India RIR have been fat fingered by some staffer who makes changes then goes home for the day: meanwhile a multinational bank is down for 24 hours within the country because said agency doesn't believe in 24/7 support.
Typically they do this for non pay but they've dropped the hammer multiple other times incorrectly (and good luck getting a RFO out of anyone there).
This becomes an inverse Russian roulette: only one of six chambers is not loaded.
Waiting for a release like "... the level of social media amplification around this incident has brought scrutiny that is out of proportion to OTP 1FA place in our business. In view of this, after detailed deliberations our board has concluded that withdrawing from global OTP 1FA is the right decision for eMudhra and its shareholders"
> fear not, here's a complete bypass of their 1fa otp login system. they encrypt OTPs to a public key and issue those behind cloudflare turnstile. this key to be precise:
> fear not, here's a complete bypass of their 1fa otp login system. they encrypt OTPs to a public key and issue those behind cloudflare turnstile. this key to be precise:
Russian Roulette is pretty accurate if not an understatement.
If they expect people to still trust them on their other services they have obviously no clue on how Trust works, meaning they shouldn't be in the game in the frist place.
As a trust provider you get one chance. Squander it and you're out. That is how it should be.
They got their image hurt, and pulling the culturally appropriate response here which is to never apologize and to never accept fault. Instead quit/resign and say that other stuff is just fine. It's really not fine, and you can bet that the same corporate philosophy that made the CA error will have serious security errors in their other products.
Unsurprising if you are familiar with the indian honor code „izzat“. To quote an old kiwifarms thread:
Hi. I didn't see this term mentioned in the thread, so I wanted to share this all with you. It's about Izzat. Some posts have mentioned 'saving face', which is Izzat, but I wanted to elaborate on it.
Izzat has no direct translation into English. We only have terms that can broach the same concept such as 'honour' or 'reputation' or 'face'. Izzat is so much more than that. It's a zero-sum game of collective honour shared by whole groups of people, all of whom take it very, very seriously. A system like this isn't just foreign to Enlightenment values, but I'd argue it's antithetical to every sensible form of governance on the planet. It will destroy any system that assumes good faith.
Izzat conflicts are not about who is right and who is wrong. It's about who wins and who loses. This means it's a zero-sum game where just about any action is justified (including murder) to restore the lost Izzat. Izzat is a limited social currency and the easiest way to get it is to take it from someone else. Winning is righteous in Izzat. Losing is unrighteous. This means that if someone plays the game of izzat well enough, they can get away with just about anything (murder, rape, scamming, cheating, stealing). The only morality in Izzat is the protection of your group's collective ego. The only appropriate response when your Izzat is attacked is the complete destruction of whoever insulted it.
Two people get into an argument. They might escalate, but chances are it won't be that bad. i.e. 'Sorry I broke your garden gnome.' With two Indians in an argument, the stakes are always deadly thanks to Izzat. Neither of them can back down, nor can they admit fault. Admitting fault is seen as deliberately humiliating yourself. Not only that, but because Izzat is shared, you are shaming everyone who shares your Izzat. So, admitting fault or taking responsibility for a problem is a form of social suicide. This means even if the dispute was over something completely fucking stupid or trivial (like a broken garden gnome), it could spiral into a decades long honour feud.
Izzat is also the reason why police are reluctant to get involved in disputes. Because Izzat is a zero-sum game, all participants are involved in the game. If a policeman sides with one family over another in an Izzat dispute, this means that he's deliberately taking the side of that family and dishonouring the other. This marks him for retribution by the offending party. Without parties being able to be impartial, then centralized authority cannot effectively function.
Let's say someone in India complains about a broken water pipe. Instead of the problem being addressed, the official responsible for the water pipe denies it's a problem and counterattacks him instead, because daring to question his efficacy in his role was challenging his Izzat. So the official destroys the person who brought the problem up. The water pipe never gets fixed.
Izzat is also the reason why Indian managers are so infamous for hiring more Indians. It's because from the manager's perspective, he's using his position to gain an invisible social currency. Merit and actual qualifications come second to that idea. If he hired a westerner, he would not gain or even lose Izzat by doing so. He has a very strong cultural incentive not to be impartial. Meanwhile, if he can strong-arm dozens of Indians into a company, he is gaining huge quantities of Izzat and conspirators who owe an absolute debt to him.
It's not uncommon to see Indians gloat about their success in the west. And yes, izzat is very much a system that enables short term success. But the fundamental reality is the prosperity that these Indians find so attractive in the first place wouldn't exist if the west practiced something similar to Izzat. Our systems can only exist on the assumption of good faith, and not a majority of people exploiting them for destructive short term gain. On top of that, if an Indian causes the systems and companies he comes into contact with to collapse, then he can just go back to India with his plunder. He has no stakes in the long-term prosperity, functionality or stability of these systems. The stakes are completely asymmetrical in the Indian's favour.
You all know about that infamous video of that Indian scamming a food bank. Once again, winning is righteous. Losing is not. By employing 'clever' means (jugaad), he successfully extracted more resources for himself and his family. From the perspective of jugaad, a rule is not something to respect, but merely an obstacle to the Indian's own gain. Since he cheated the system and wasn't caught, he is seen as a righteous and dignified man in the Izzat framework.
I read a story in India about a man offering to pay another man to use a public toilet instead of defecating openly. The latter left and came back with several friends and beat the former to death. The problem was not that he was defecating openly, but that he was criticised for doing so. And with Izzat, it's not an eye-for-an-eye. Izzat is often an eye-for-a-whole-head. Disproportionately and brutally annihilating your enemies is the correct move to make because you take back your lost Izzat and then some. This kind of vindictiveness would be rightly seen as horrifying and disgusting in most of the world.
Somehow this is making it even worse. Like, I'm having issues explaining the whole thing to my wife, because I can't come up with a metaphor or parable that's even remotely as ridiculous as what they've done. Anyone's got a good one?
Maybe, like, setting up a factory that builds both LHD and RHD cars and building cars with two passenger seats in the front for two years straight without anyone noticing?
The internet's security relies on an almost impenetrable wall built around it. The king appoints gatekeepers that are each entrusted with a gate they must protect. The gatekeepers must follow a rigorous interrogation process to verify the ID of anyone who wants to pass through their gate. Only then are they permitted to unlock it.
The king was very careful to ensure all the gatekeepers were following the process correctly. It did not occur to anybody that one of the gatekeepers could be using a dirty rag to jam their gate closed instead of a lock.
Once discovered, the wall could be trivially bypassed. The security of the whole internet was immediately broken. Rebuilding the wall to block up the dodgy gate took much effort from very many people.
I think part of the issue is that we allow gatekeepers to open any gate.
This system was invented in the 90s when things were looking up. China was opening up to the world, the Russians were suddenly not evil anymore, and the internet was supposed to bring us all together into one happy global society, kumbaya and all that. Obviously that didn't work out.
It's time for a rethink really. Every CA is now a single point of failure.
Now the gatekeeper is saying "I don't want to be a gatekeeper anymore for this one particular gate, because people were mean to me. I'll however continue being gatekeeper for these other gates that drive my business either way."
I think a part of the issue was, everyone living outside the walls did not even try to kick the gates open as everyone assumed a big (cryptographically secure) lock was being used by all gatekeepers.
Its called a Potemkin solution, and there is a serious theory that most nuclear arsenals are exactly that: no-one has ever confirmed they can actually be fired.
In this analogy I think it would be more appropriate to call them a lockmaker, and a lot of gates have been using this lock. Finding and fixing every lock is where the effort comes from, and some locks may not be found for years to come.
This lockmaker analogy fails to capture one critical aspect: the failure of one CA breaks the security of everyone, even if they did not use that CA's "locks".
This is why I went for a "wall with many gates" instead; any bypass makes all gates redundant.
All analogies break down at some level; the main goal is to clearly communicate the most important ideas.
In the old days a king would "sign" his proclamations by pressing his "unforgeable" signet into a wax seal. This proved the authenticity of the proclamation.
Normally, the king would declare and sign a proc stating that anything signed by his secretary's "unforgeable" signet was to be respected as well. The secretary could delegate authority to others in turn.
Well turns out that one of the signets in the chain of trust was just a picture of a "four" that anybody could have forged, but nobody noticed because in all of the ceremony and stacks of parchment with wax seals, nobody actually checked if the signet was secure.
They were "unforgeable" because commissioning a jeweler to make an intricate carving on a ring by hand was very expensive in the first place. Finding one who could precisely replicate an existing carving, down to the mistakes of its original author and any wear and tear that would be visible on the wax seal, was almost impossible and even more expensive.
Of course, I didn't mean to imply it took zero effort to copy one, though I guess that's how it read. You'd have to find a skilled jeweler that's also willing to commit treason, so for sure the barrier wasn't insignificant there.
Indeed. In both this scenario and our modern one, we rely on the difficulty of "key material" reproduction being greater than the difficulty of its creation.
However, Kings likely benefitted from the option of a scapegoat, they could always blame someone for forging their unforgeable seal and have them killed, rather than admit that the seal was true.
If we add in attainder and escheat, the King had a pretty strong hand.
It's enough that the signet could be verified, and sometimes was [1].
As it turns out, these documents were mostly useful for long-lived décisions, which could be overturned, and where a forgery exposed you for a lifetime.
for the non technical folks: imagine there was a password that if you guess it, you can impersonate *any website on the internet*
now imagine the password is literally the number 4
I just explained what it actually is. I said "you know how you go to a website HTTPS and it's secure? Well Apple chose a couple of trusted parties that your phone inherently trusts, and those people approve a few thousand intermediate companies who do the day-to-day certificate work for end websites. One of those intermediates, rather than choosing a 200-digit random number, chose 4, no not four-digits, the number 4". And then we could laugh at some of the memes.
I told my fiance it was a bit like if a company that produces keypad door locks accidentally added a master code (115) which works on every single door and has for the last two years.
It's hard to explain partly because when you explain this thing we've done with TLS and PKI, it sounds a little insane.
> "We set up a system where every government and a bunch of random banks and IT companies in the world holds the secret codes to everyone's encryption. Then we make them pinky swear not to abuse it, with stern talkings to if they do. And now it's all on fire, because one of them was irresponsible!"
You can know the intractability of the problem that PKI is solving, and the (worse) alternatives that have been tried, but that doesn't make this system not-insane to a normal person, and its at least a little bit the fault of the collective "us".
And it's not like it is an impossible problem; we rely on TOFU for SSH, we have remotely-attestable TPMs everywhere, ZKPPs / PAKEs exist, session keys and federation protocols are widespread. Somewhere in the set of "possible solutions" are options that don't sound unhinged when you explain how we got to this eMuhdra situation.
I believe you misunderstood how it works. A parent certificate cannot be used to decrypt information encrypted by a child certificate… the CA issuer just signs your child certificate, it doesn’t have access to your private key.
Then, everyone who trusts the CA will trust your certificate by checking it is signed by the CA who should have done the checks to ensure your certificate contains truthful data.
So your layman description of “they have secret codes to everyone’s encryption” is completely wrong.
They have the secret codes to MITM (intercept, inspect, alter and forge) any communication if they manage to place themselves between you and a party you trust.
Certificate keys aren't used for encryption anymore anyway.
A modern TLS connection uses an ephemeral key-exchange protocol where both parties opaquely agree to a one-time-use random encryption key that is not knowable to any other party, not even someone who can gain access to either party's private key. This is called Forward Secrecy (originally and sometimes still known as Perfect Forward Secrecy or PFS, but the use of the word "perfect" in any cryptographic context is akin to naming a ship "Unsinkable").
I told my wife the following: basically when you access a website like your bank, and you see the padlock in the address bar, that means that the computer the website is on has shown your computer a certificate saying that the same company that built the website you’re looking at owns the web address you’re going to.
Your computer has a built-in list of signatures that it trusts and expects to see on the certificates, and one of those signatures was eMudhra’s. These signatures are basically just a proof that you know a secret number without revealing the number itself. If you know the secret number, you can sign the certificate.
There are an unimaginable number of secret numbers. Imagine each atom in the Great Pyramid of Giza is a secret number. And then imagine you have as many Great Pyramids of Giza as there are atoms in the universe. And then double it.
Now imagine you choose any of the numbers represented by all those atoms to sign the certificate with, and you chose 4.
It’s not technically wrong: 4 is indeed a number. But if anyone wants to guess your number, and they start at 0, it won’t take them very long to find your secret number.
Once they’ve found your secret number, they can now sign certificates pretending to be you. So someone could pretend to be your bank, and present a certificate saying “yes, I am your bank” with a signature on it that your computer trusts.
It's a padlock with a code. The manufacturer makes the padlock with a specially made pin, so you can lock your front gate, and feel secure.
eMudhra sent you a padlock that had the code "4815" promising no one has ever used it or would be able to guess it, but all anyone really needed to try to get in is set the first number to "4" and ignore the rest.
It's not entirely accurate, but its accurate enough for them to get.
I'd refine this to, the cylinder for the lock did not care what key you put in, it woul open it anyways. So the key looks secure, but the lock is a joke.
As a 90s kid, the Dodge Omni was a common shitbox student car. I think they had like 8 key patterns lol.
My brother’s ignition key unlocked my friends’s trunk. There were a few people who could start other peoples cars. In one case, a soccer player “stole” a football players unlocked car as they looked identical and were parked near each other. In another as a prank we unlocked cars to roll them out of parking spots and physically lift them into unusual places.
Everyone in your neighborhood knows your address, but someone discovered two days ago that they can get into your house by sticking a 4" oblong piece of paper into the keyhole. They put it on blast on Facebook, so now everyone in the whole planet is trying to break into your house.
y'all underestimate your wives, i simply explained how PKI works in simple terms (alice/bob, public key, private key) and explained that they chose 4 as a private key instead of something complicated, she got it.
I start by saying this is about the tech behind the S in HTTPS. I say that the main point of this is that when you talk to foo.com, it has to prove that the people behind foo.com are on the other end, so it's safe to send them your encrypted password or whatever.
Then I say a bit about how the system works by having a small number of trustworthy companies vouch for other people's servers. This doesn't need too much technical detail to get the point across.
Then I say one of those "trustworthy" companies put an encryption key of 4, where it's supposed to be a long number that's hard to crack. This makes the verification easy to forge.
Then I say that everybody who runs a server needs to remove this company's bad key, and Windows or Mac or your phone needs updates too. And that your web browser probably already quietly removed it, which removes a lot of the risk.
I feel like when I explain it this way people get it.
You know how we got a lock on our door, and it opens only with our key? Turns out someone made a lock which looked secure, but actually opened when you said the word "friend" - and then engraved "speak, friend, and enter" on the door.
>I can't come up with a metaphor or parable that's even remotely as ridiculous as what they've done
The best example I can think is (some) international borders: yeah, they're heavily regulated entities with lots of written protections (and thousands of miles of impenitrable barricades), but occassionally a hole opens up (whether physically or engineered).
Perhaps a section of border fence is occassionally destroyed (and people sneak in), but this won't happen if the border guards are approving [false] passports from a compromised government actor ("they have a valid passport, according to our inspection"), the border fence doesn't even matter!
Presume anybody can now go to that bad-passport-issuing government and request a passport to then enter any other country (i.e. the other country will see the passport as valid in the official global database): BAM, borders no longer mean anything; welcome to Privileged Accessia.
How about, someone is selling a secure box of some sort, and their factory starts putting glitter nail polish over the screws that hold it together, as is sometimes done for security reasons.
Then the intern decides, “I can just glue these identical little white circles with blue sparkles onto the screw, and it will be faster and I can take more breaks!”
I described it like it was a company selling the highest security locks to companies that needed them, then one day someone discovered you could open the door with a toothpick.
The Hyundai/Kia cars where a USB-A connector fit the lock actuator and was enough to start the car, so enough got stolen that insurance companies stopped issuing policies for them.
The same Kias & Hyundais were sold in South Korea, but their auto theft rate is 60x lower than the US.[1] Car theft rates are mostly determined by how effectively car thieves are caught & punished, not by how secure the car is.
"We're designing/running the lottery. You get to pick the winning numbers, in secret, obviously so no one will know. There are millions of numbers you can pick from, using a random system so it's all trustworthy. Instead of drawing a random ball out, and another and another, you write down the number 4 on a bit of paper and go home for the day thinking it's a job well done. No one noticed because they all expected it to take up to a million guesses, until someone just asked if it was 4"
we could stick with the metaphor of keys. The modern web requires fancy ones capable of hundreds of notches. The company in question basically skipped the step of notches and just used the blank key
Why do you need an analogy? Analogies are always bad.
Encryption relies on long complicated numbers, but they made the number instead of long and complicated just the number “4”. Which is actually harder than using a long and complicated number because it’s basically all automated so we don’t even know how They fucked it up this bad.
i explain it by using Donald Trump: There is the atomic football (a case traveling with Trump so he can initiate a atomic war even while playing golf). The combination of the lock an the "Football" obviously is 0-0-0-0-0-0, But Tramp has problems remembering the order of the digits in the combination.
I'm also wondering who the hell would use a registrar called "eMudhra" with Arial font in the subtext in their logo. It's so incredibly 90s.
I'm actually being serious, I do judge companies by their logo and website design taste, and more modern-looking companies also tend to pay more attention to doing things properly.
oof. even as a bystander i’m feeling the cortisol just reading the questions. i’m curious what even goes into compiling this list of questions - did they plan on going for the kill?
“d=4” is a perfectly legal RSA private key. The corresponding public key would probably have a weird e (not 65537, the usual choice), but would otherwise be legal, and could have an arbitrarily large modulus n (thus appearing “secure”).
Note that p,q (the primes you’re thinking of) are not actually required for decryption. They enable you to calculate d, the decryption exponent, and also enable decryption-time optimizations (exponentiation with d_p and d_q followed by CRT recombination), but that’s optional. In fact, p,q can be computed from n, e and d.
You can't do that because an RSA private key contains two numbers - the modulus and the exponent. Even better, an RSA private key usually has the modulus stored as its two factors rather than their product.
Also note that using small numbers like 65537 for RSA public exponents is common practice.
Like, that had to be malicious right? ssh-keygen won't generate a key like this, and neither will openssl or whatever Microsoft is doing behind their CA server.
The other keys were 56, 66, 115, 155, 156, 230, 237. I honestly think whoever did this thought the "384" in 384-bit meant they had to choose numbers between 0-384.
I assume you’re referring to [1]? If so, I just did after seeing your comment. I couldn’t help but chuckle at the demonstration of how easy it would be for someone to obtain the private keys themselves using an LLM, even though it’s easy to crack without one….
Using RSA as an example, the prime factors are supposed to have the same bit length (plus or minus 1 for carryover) for a similar reason. If the smaller factor has 1 fewer bit than the larger factor, it will be discovered twice as quickly by brute force, and 4x faster if it has 2 fewer bits, 8x faster if it has 3 fewer bits, etc. You could technically create a 4096 bit RSA key where one of the factors is 3 and the other is some other giant prime, but it would be immediately discovered by a naive brute force attack.
The algorithm itself isn't concerned with the bit-length difference and operates on the inputs opaquely. The key generator is responsible for selecting prime factors that cannot be easily derived from the algorithm's output.
Sure, but the probability of getting "4" as opposed to some number that might as as well be equivalent to latter as far as a causal reader is concerned is insanely small.
Yeah, except in total there were eight different weak keys, all less than 256. The odds of randomly generating those keys (all so small) is so astronomically low that we know for sure their keygen process was messed up.
Maybe it was just a mistake and they intended to generate a `--bitsize 4` thinking it was in kilobyte units.
shrug
I think they're just absolutely inept and should never be trusted with anything security related as an organisation if this is a mistake they could make.
Today "racism" is used as a synonym for "bigotry". Would you agree it was bigotry? Or do you only have a problem with people using words wrong, and not bigotry itself?
Whynot use the correct word for it, which is prejudice? Racism is prejudice against a race. You can be prejudiced to any group of people, doesnt mean that you are biggoted.
> Whynot use the correct word for it, which is prejudice?
Again you seem more concerned with grammar than, y'know, condemning racism, prejudice, or bigotry. They're all equally bad and closely related concepts. "A rose by another name" and so on.
Your own comment has 3 typos and several grammatical errors ("prejudiced to" is wrong, for example). Irony.
Finally, modern usages of "racism" encapsulate all of these meanings. Languages change over time.
> You can be prejudiced to any group of people, doesnt mean that you are biggoted
They are not being pedantic here, they are establishing a meaningful difference in words to help distinguish a shared phenomena. I think the original comment was unnecessary and certainly bigoted, but I would need more to say racism. The "grammar" guy clarified twice the semantic difference they personally observed (note they did not labor on syntax like you wish to suggest).
All that said, I make this comment as I believe the other commenter's worry is on display im this comment here...
> Again you seem more concerned with grammar than, y'know, condemning racism, prejudice, or bigotry. They're all equally bad and closely related concepts
These are _not_ all equally bad. Prejudice is foundational to understanding, there is no escape from this. In this understanding, we should treat particular postures of prejudice more serious than collapsing any "bad prejudice" under the same label.
> I think the original comment was unnecessary and certainly bigoted, but I would need more to say racism
Do you think racism is worse than bigotry? Why? I understand that the first word has a more emotional charge in our times. But as far as "bad things to do" go they're equal in gravity. Racism is just a subset of bigotry.
> These are _not_ all equally bad
Why not?
> Prejudice is foundational to understanding
That's one definition of the word - "judging without knowing the facts".
But there's another definition - "an irrational hostile attitude, fear, or hatred towards a particular group, race, or religion" - which was the one we are operating with in this thread.
My mistake. English is not my first language. In my native language, the word racism is used for discrimination or prejudice against anything foreign (nation, race, language, ...).
But either way, I find the reduction of the argument to the semantics of the word racism to be deflection. Wouldn't you agree the original comment was made in poor taste? Why did it need to include a reference to Indian and imply that all things Indian made are cheap or low quality?
We applied this kind of mindset to the Japanese in the 60s and 70s, and look where that got us. I witness it happening again in the 00s and 10s applied to Korean electronics (LG and Samsung mostly) while we were content with minor improvements over the status quo and innovating far too slowly.
Yes, this incident has an almost farcical amount of stupid attached to it, but the fact that it happened to an Indian company is in my eyes only coincidental. There are plenty of Silicon Valley startups and tech companies that are equally cavalier about aspects of security and apply the mentality of "we'll fix it in post" to anything but shipping features.
Dutch. The word is "racisme", and the entry for it in our dictionary[0] states:
> Racism is a form of discrimination in which a person is judged on the basis of his or her ethnic origin, skin color, nationality or religion. It is a form of prejudice and inequality that prevents people from gaining equal opportunities.
While I'm happy to admit that perhaps my use of the word in English is incorrect and its meaning there is more narrow, in Dutch it covers nationality or religion as well. Islamophobia is considered racist ("racistisch") in Dutch, for example.
"There are plenty of Silicon Valley startups and tech companies that are equally cavalier about aspects of security and apply the mentality of "we'll fix it in post" to anything but shipping features."
IME the number of manual processes which are bug-prone and faulty in Indian teams is higher than normal, and so is the reluctance to any form of automated testing, and general unawareness about any security or licensing concerns.
Almost all browsers require certificates be recorded in Certificate Transparency logs <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_Transparency#Manda...>. Since those logs are empty in this instance, you can state that no one used a forged certificate with a mainstream browser, which is the most obvious (and desirable) attack type.
Mainstream browsers were a juicy but also a very short term attack target.
The more interesting targets will be various REST etc apis being called over https. Lots of people doing API clients have been ignoring the "what if someone tricks me to connect to an evil server" vector, because they assume TLS verification will protect them.
You can also monitor if they show up in certificate transparency logs. Which won't catch all fraudulently issued certs, but might show up some, especially if it's being widely abused.
> About eMudhra / With over 17 years of expertise, eMudhra is a global provider of digital identity, trust, and security solutions, enabling secure digital transformation for banks and financial institutions (BFSI), enterprises, and governments across more than 35 countries worldwide. Its product suite spans CertiNext
I was hoping the statement at the bottom would be written in past tense: eMudhra was a global provider of digital identity ... had temporarily enabled secure digital transformation ... Its product suite spanned CertiNext...
According to this blog [1], it has now been almost 5 days since a researcher reported to Apple that the eMudhra CA certificates were compromised.
As I am writing, my iPhone 15 Pro is still accepting certificates signed by these compromised CAs. The device is "up to date", yet is still running Trust Store Version 2026073000. When I check at [2], certificates issued by 3 eMudhra Intermediate CAs are still being trusted!
Google Chrome revoked these certificates in 1 hour 40 minutes, Mozilla in just under 4 hours.
I am so astonished by how much Apple has failed here. There are potentially huge swathes of people completely oblivious that their phones are susceptible right now to being man-in-the-middle attacked.
Why does the iPhone not utilise a CRL list? Why does it take Apple 5+ days to do what Chrome did in under 2 hours.
It's a similar story for my MacBook, but at least there my Chrome browser _does_ use a CRL (the same can't be said for all the programs installed, however).
I suspect Apple published no update and is relying on the CA's CRL and/or OCSP to do its job. But it's rate-limited, the connections time out, and iOS is hard-coded to soft-fail.
Like you my trust store is months old.
That said, I found separate installs of Firefox and Microsoft Edge that accepted *all* the bad certificates without a care.
The only browser that consistently rejected all of them was — you guessed it — Internet Explorer. A browser so old it couldn't even run the test properly but it did what it needed to and blocked all the servers.
To be honest, this whole experience has left me with a very sour taste in my mouth. It feels to me that the whole CA industry needs reform.
I am not smart enough to say how, but the sheer amount of work this created across the industry is monstrous. It probably has cost $billions to mitigate, and those mitigations have been slow and ineffective (see: my iPhone still being vulnerable).
In my experience, seemingly random pieces of software, libraries, and programming languages packaging their own CA stores has made this much harder to mitigate than simply running 'apt-get update ca-certificates'. We've practically just had to update every single thing to mitigate this.
Most of the stuff just seems/ feels to be (security) theatre. I actually disabled most of my OSCP, etc., for privacy reasons. No need to permanently send requests out to the web, when it won't help anyway when really required. I read HN to stay up-to-date and manually manage the certificates.
(Even with all the related options disabled, e.g., ocspd on OSX still regularly connects to random certificate related services to "check" on things. Something related to random root certificates I don't have in the system trust store or such, Not entirely sure what this is about and how to get rid of the requests in any other way than blocking things with Little Snitch)
For your own sake and the sake of anyone else who might be hitting this bug, I suggest you open applefeedback:// in Safari, file a bug, and post the FB number here or on the Apple Developer Forums.
How did you report it? If you used Feedback Assistant then it would have given you an FB number. That’s the only way to be sure anyone at Apple sees it.
I selected the applefeedback:// url you shared and used "look up" (there's no "open link" option). That sent me to the official Apple feedback site. Are you saying that site's submissions aren't checked or something else?
Ah well. Guess it's as broken as the CRL, or I just clicked the buttons wrong or something. I just saw a thank you screen. I checked my email in case they sent something there, but nah.
Do you have battery saving mode on? I think it blocks the background process that updates. I had the same issue but turning it off and waiting 1 minute started blocking all the certificates. This is for iPhone 13.
It's my laptop and I can't easily revoke the certificates myself.
edit: I went to keychain access app and found all emudhar and em signer certs -> there were four -> clicked get info for each -> under Trust section of the pop-ip -> selected "When using this certificate: never trust".
I'm pretty sure Apple does use CRLs, but for some reason your phone has a problem fetching them. Yesterday my iPhone SE running iOS 15.8.8 did connect to the sites, but refused to connect about 30 minutes later.
"eMudhra’s global SSL/TLS infrastructure runs separately from its other operations. The company’s Global digital signature certificate (DSC), eSign, and other signing services, including those in India, its enterprise PKI Solutions (emCA, CertiNext platforms), emSigner eSignature Suite, and its identity and authentication solutions (SecurePass, emAS) are not affected and continue to operate as normal."
So they didn't even use their own certificates? :)
what worries me is, I wrote a message to some older family members who travel alot, asking them to upgrade their systems if they plan on using hotel/airport wifi. Not being a security expert i had chatgpt criticise it, so I dont get something wrong. using "some company in India" made it rather dismissive of the warning, actively taking the company's side(the bad "no keys were issued" defense), whereas just saying "some idiots" had it generally approve the message.
i'm not sure how much i should read into this, but if you're sending out warnings to people susceptible to ask chatgpt about it, don't say the company is Indian.
100% true. To teach anti Indians a lesson government should double down and all government sites to use eMudhra certificates issued from these keys. And support this good Indian business from collapsing.
Yes, but in the end that's not their fault, and in a sense it's good that this happened. It was well understood from the invention of security certificates that private keys might leak and certificates will need to be revoked. Systems that were not designed with this in mind should never have been deployed, and should now be decommissioned and replaced.
It might even be sensible to intentionally revoke a small number of certificates every month, to make sure nobody is complacent.
Mmmh so you will be trying to supplant the destination server with your own, with this emudhra leaked cert, to see what's being sent? Or how are you planning to do that? Just curious :)
This reminds me - I need to get around to setting up a PiHole and convince my partner that her freemium mobile games aren't necessarily worth the telemetry scrapes.
a high quality set of FOSS, community inspected "freemium clones" may do more for national security and individual privacy compared to yet another crypto library with zero novel mathematics just another reimplementation of specs...
My girlfriend deliberately watches the extra ads to get in-game rewards, so I can't even pihole the whole home network unless I exclude her phone. (I find that most of these games work fine if you block ads, but they also don't give you the rewards for watching an ad that never loaded.)
I've had a PiHole running on a NUC for about 2.5 years. I adore it. It should be built into every consumer router.
My wife still plays her freemium games, the ads just don't load. She took out one of those games when we were sitting at the airport once. She was frustrated that her once-pleasant strategy game was suddenly crammed full of ads for boomer slot machine apps, and I had to explain that the app had probably always been that way.
That makes sense and seems like it might be a net positive. While she's waiting for her ad countdown, she can gaze into my eyes and realize how much she appreciates me lol
> Yes, but in the end that's not their fault, and in a sense it's good that this happened.
I am reminded of the US DST changes back in the 2000s: there was all sorts of drama because a lot of software is written in the US, and there was much 'computerization' in the 1990s, but US coders had never personally experienced a DST rule change during that time period, so any change needed a reboot to pick up the new rules.
That drama led to (e.g.) periodic dynamic checking of /etc/localtime on various Unix-y system.
Sometimes you don't realize that things can be improved until you experience situations in which they currently suck.
The leadership page is comedy gold ("Leadership That Inspires Trust"):
> He has wide experience spanning over 45 years in Banking, Financial Services and Technology Industry. His profound understanding of the digital security landscape has been instrumental in eMudhra's global expansion and innovation. ...
> A thought leader and author, Mr. Srinivasan penned "New Age Management Philosophy from Ancient Indian Wisdom," ...
> Under his visionary leadership, eMudhra has become a cornerstone in digital security, known for its pioneering solutions and steadfast adherence to global standards.
You say comedy gold. However in Vishwaguru Indian universe they are much vaunted South Indian Brahmins who anyone in the world accept that they are the best in anything they do. Hence they are pure gold.
Tell Congress to change the rules again soon, lest a new generation of programmers become complacent and hardcode transitions again. Many current junior programmers don’t remember the 2000s rule change.
I can even hear this conversation happening: what? I need to open this America/Los_Angeles file just to convert a timestamp? What pretentious overengineering! I want a single-file executable with zero dependencies. Let me hard code the rules.
There's a bunch of changes recently / coming up in Canada, so that might be good enough. I've started occasionally reading the tzdb mailing list archives for fun because of that.
Google has decided to stop trusting certificates with dual purpose (server and client) and managed to negotiate a decrease in the maximum (SSL/TLS) certificate lifetime because certificate revocation doesn't work.
We've had to rework part of our application and certificate use because of this.
The problem isn't revocation of end-user identity certificates. There's hundreds of millions of those floating around at any given point, so revocation happens very regularly. The issue is revocation of intermediates and roots, which involves invalidating tens of millions of certificates and often find themselves in embedded/non-web applications (financial, legal signatures, medical data exchange).
An analogy would be shutting down neighborhood streets versus shutting down major highways in a state for a hurricane evacuation. You can't test the latter at scale.
It really is. It's basically chaos monkey for pki.
Code paths and procedures that aren't exercised regularly are broken.
Even better is having a way to reoke keys and big players occasionally include revoked keys in trust chains and blast a warning if the revoked key is considered valid.
It baffles me that software on Linux/Windows/MacOS doesn't just use the system certificate store, then it would just be a single place to update. Instead we need to be update pip, UV, node, etc separately.
I can see the case on phones: the OS may no longer be supported by the vendor, so browsers shipping their own set makes sense. And on embedded there isn't (and on IOT there might not be) an OS, but then you should probably just ship the the single CA that you use, not all of them.
It rages me as well. Some random attacker could have MITM attack any https website without being noticed by anyone(including eMudhra), surely it won't contribute any to their revenue!
I mean, yeah I get your point but also if these pieces of the stack weren't prepared to deal with a compromised CA, then they were also at least a little bit negligent. There's always a chance this is going to happen. There's a chance it could happen and there not be any negligence or incompetence on the part of the CA
But at the end of the day if you're not prepared to revoke the trust of any CA you trust, it's a you problem
As I understand it, the reason for so much work is that eMudhra was not a root CA. It wasn't added to any official root CA list, instead it was signed by a different root CA with the assumption that eMudhra will complete the work required to become a root CA and this hack will become unnecessary. This is a common, temporary process. So while all the mechanisms for root CA revocation were in place, no one was quite prepared for intermediate certificate revocation.
Take out the word root from my original reply. If you aren't prepared to immediately stop trusting a CA--root, intermediate, internal, then your process is broken
"no one was quite prepared for intermediate certificate revocation" is actually worse because as an intermediate CA, they obviously didn't meet the requirements to be a full root CA, so why wouldn't they be more likely to need revocation than a root? Honestly more negligent than being unable to revoke a root.
This is just wrong though, they were a root CA. There was cross-signing which is typical, but their `emSign ECC Root CA - G3` root certificate was in most CA bundles.
Good point. I get why some stacks use their own trust stores and not the system trust store. But there should be some mechanism to revoke trust to some of the CAs, without applying patches or rebuilding. Even if its just a convention based /etc/certs/revoked-certs file.
It looks to me like the world was decently prepared to deal with it. The bad certificates are being blocked and there don't appear to be widespread compromises.
That doesn't mean it's cheap or easy, or that it's reasonable for the responsible party to brush off all the havoc they've caused.
eMudhra stock is down 20% [1] There is a real financial consequence of bad posture. I am confident they were passing the compliances; everything was 100%.
We have been operating in India for a while. People do not take security, processes, etc., seriously in India. At least most of the organizations do not. Most likely, a human error caused the incident, and guardrails could have prevented it.
The sad part is that even after a major incident like this, the org is probably not going to invest in tools and processes to improve their posture. They will only do what is necessary to meet compliance. This is just the nature of a market driven by low margins and low-quality vendors.
There is no malice here by the org; it is just unfortunate.
If this company was so incompetent that their private keys were a single byte, I seriously wonder what other areas they're incompetent in but that they've ventured into anyway. When you fail so spectacularly and so publicly at something like being a certificate authority, in the manner that eMudra did, it's rather hard not to wonder.
The big takeaway here is: Web PKI is fundamentally broken, and the existence of CAs as a concept is the vulnerability that must be fixed -- or, more specifically, the idea that ultimately trusting a relatively small, basically fixed/hard-to-change set of (mostly) commercial entities with something this critical and far-reaching is (or ever was) actually a good idea.
There are a lot of reassuring statements from browser makers and others about how their mitigations for exactly this scenario kicked in and protected (some set of) Internet users, but IMHO there is not nearly enough discussion happening about fixing things so those mitigations are not needed to begin with.
You could store the public key for each website in DNS. But now you moved the trust problem to DNSSEC. So far I haven't heard about issues like this for DNSSEC, but then again it is not a massive target currently.
Well yeah, or have the website define which CA they use, and don't let any of the others certify it. Apparently there is already DANE for this but webbrowsers don't check it.
Besides, there could be more CAs supporting .in of course.
The largest problem is that you trust the entire set of commercial entities (in any one of them can destroy the world's security by itself), and the set is semi-secret (in no party using them actually knows what the set is).
There is no valid reason my computer should come preloaded with 100+ trusted certificates from many jurisdictions that all can sign certs for all domains.
Only a few major CAs in jurisdictions that admit heavy scrutiny and legal liability should operate. Country-specific CAs, if any, should only be scoped to signing certificates for their respective ccTLDs.
I came here looking for a comment suggesting just that. But surely there is some massive issue with this idea we are overlooking? Otherwise I don't see why it hasn't already been implemented long ago, it seems so obvious as a mitigation.
Also the industry has changed a lot since Let's Encrypt. You could have argued against monopolizing the CA issuance to just a few countries/entities as sovereignty issue, and CAs were indeed exhibiting extreme rent-seeking behavior before Let's Encrypt. With a guaranteed free and accessible alternative in the mix, the weight of the arguments against would change.
And it will be even easier for them provided they praise right leaders.
But more importantly they don't need to any such name change. For people who matter in India it is just some random incident which Anti-Indian entities are whining about.
> For people who matter in India it is just some random incident which Anti-Indian entities are whining about.
Does this mean "trust no indian CAs"? those "Anti-Indian" entities hold a lot of power, and the indian IT industry needs to maintain the trust it has with the rest of the world.
Well you are not thinking in wrong direction. In their world view India is IT superpower and the whole world already depends on them.
To think of reasoning may help them course correct is wishful thinking. Read about Indian pharma sector and what kind crappy, dangerous drugs they are peddling to world.
This is confident, resurgent India . Reason, competency are racist words if used agaist them.
No, the customers for commercial certs are mid-level managers, who believe paying thousands of dollars for something you can also get for free means you are getting a higher quality - or in this case even believe it is "more secure". Rebranding will absolutely work for that, especially when you market your untrusted root as "ISO-certified private dedicated cloud-based PKI-as-a-Service".
The technical people will just install a certbot and use the default Let's Encrypt config.
If they wanted to continue to make money, they could: exit the business, wait a bit, change the company name, and re-enter the business. Where "change the company name" could mean starting an actual new company, but with the same people, offices, contacts (OK, small problem there) and so on.
> Its infrastructure was not compromised and no data was breached.
The private key of your globally trusted CA is infrastructure data and it was breached.
> All physical and logical security controls remained intact.
No, because you promised the CA Program that those keys would be HSM generated, FIPS 140-2 level 3 compliant. Ain't no compliant HSM in the world that will generate "4" as a private key.
> There were no end entity certificates issued out of the affected CA's.
I charitably read this as "revoking these weak CA didn't affect customers". But now your whole root is being revoked next week (which you forgot to mention). All your TLS customers get screwed.
Overall, good choice to give up, but lying on your way out is not a good look for a company with the tagline "Trust Delivered".
I just wonder how many times private keys were lost by or stolen from by slightly less incompetent companies?
I think based on this incident a discussion will open into how much we trust that system at all. With the level of espionage tactics some countries are keen to show the rest of the world, I personally assume absolutely anything can be sniffed.
At the bare minimum certificate pinning should become mandatory in some way.
Internet2 provides InCommon Certificate Service, issuing certificates from "InCommon Intermediate CA" which chains up to emSign Root CA - G1. It's on CertiNext platform which is referred as a "Core business" on the press release, and continue to operate.
> However, the level of social media amplification around this incident has brought scrutiny that is out of proportion to SSL/TLS’s place in our business.
What a weak minded statement. Just admit you messed up and call it a day.
Immediately and totally exiting the domain is about as close to admit you messed up and call it a day as you'll ever get from a modern company.
The statement can use whatever weasel words it likes, but the action pretty clearly says "we aren't mature enough as an organisation to handle this responsibility." Which would be quite the concern for me, if I were a customer for one of eMudhra's other product lines.
As someone who's well-versed with the "face-saving" aspects of Indian culture, I can state with clarity that the statement they put out is completely in character.
Folks in India — especially the boomer class — are trepidated by how they're perceived over actual substance and quality of their work (exceptions exist, of course).
Edit: Sudhir Kakar's (an Indian psychoanalyst) work
on Indian identity (The Inner World, Intimate Relations) helped me decode my own origin culture's internal logic. Highly recommend it for people of South Asian diaspora.
I am curious, not that I agree it exists or understand the reality of izzat, how does it differ in saving face provided by gentlemen who allow the loser to have a graceful defeat?
In martial arts the winner will often say "I got lucky" or "you almost had me" to allow the loser to save face, at least publicly, when in reality the skill gap is evident.
if it only affected the company itself rather than ~the entire world, there may be face to be saved. trusted authorities have to be held to a MUCH higher standard, for good reason.
no grace if you use 4 as the private key for a trusted authority.
> Izzat (Bengali: ইজ্জত; Hindi: इज़्ज़त; Urdu: عزت, romanized: 'izzat, lit. 'honour') literally translated: "respect" is a concept of prestige, dignity, and social respect.
If it is a component, then is OP wrong? Fwiw, a lot of nations have interesting variants of that kind of honor though they don't always express themselves the same way.
It's more than I'm not encouraging to engage with OP's point because he just wants to be a bigot. But that is separate from India having a shame based culture.
“One of eMudhra’s certificate authority private keys is the number 4. Not a number that starts with 4, or the number 4 followed by a few hundred random digits, just, 4… Another one is 56, and another is 115. I know, because I recovered all of them from their public certificates on my laptop just now, and it took less than a second,” wrote Helme.
Security researcher Scott Helme was among those who recovered the keys. This is a hall-of-fame level fail.
> Bruh, you just literally went ——— BEGIN PUBLIC KEY ——— 4 ——— END PUBLIC KEY ———
No, their private key is 4. Moreover, you wouldn't see the literal number 4 because the PEM key file would have the cryptographic sections encoded in base64.
> As someone who's well-versed with the "face-saving" aspects of Indian work culture, I can state with clarity that the statement they put out is completely in character.
As someone who's blood is tainted with teflon and microplastics same as you, I can state with clarity that attributing universal corporate tendencies to national work culture is completely in character for a Sagittarius.
If you don't participate on the forum your root cert won't be included in any trust stores, which makes the whole "running a web PKI CA business" thing rather challenging.
I hate to say this but majority of my professional encounters with Indians were with people having this little sense of accountability. But then again, with many awesome exceptions! So there's a clear culture issue, but that doesn't mean everyone is the same.
Yeah I remember that incident when Toyota Prius had a recall due to brake failure caused by an ABS software issue in rare circumstances and Toyoda himself apologized publicly.
This one is basically Japan being social media IRL since before it. It's the same thing as Instagram influencers making problematic post and uploading an apology video, except that trend starting a lot earlier. Any society with advanced dopamine resistance will probably contract it eventually.
War crimes stuffs is a separate and a bit more nuanced issue. It's also not just the simple matter of admitting or denying it.
Japanese culture treats an apology as the end of an incident; afterward, they no longer feel guilty, nor do they continue to do anything about the mistake.
To admit having messed up they would need to include the full private key in the post, which they seem to have decided is still more embarrassing than not including it.
What I hear is that he is saying that the SSL/TLS business is only a small part of their overall business and that they can close that part down as a result of the loss of reputation for that this has rendered.
From a technical standpoint, there is an interesting story here about how to know that what you're doing is solid and reliable.
I have to assume the fact this didn't get discovered suggests they weren't investing in trying to break their own crypto. A good takeaway for anyone else who wants to be in this space.
It's not quite as egregious as someone purposely choosing the key. According to the write up on the Mozilla bugtracker there was a bug in the script used for there key generation ceremony which caused the bad certificates to be generated. Obviously completely unacceptable for a CA, but makes more sense than someone plucking 4 out of the air while generating a root cert.
Correct. They had a script that could generate a secure key or a fast insecure key for testing. The script generated both at the same time.
Human error was selecting the wrong output file and promoting it forward.
It's not at all the kind of thing you want to see in a reliable, secure, mature process... There shouldn't be a step where a human even makes a choice there.
And it's exactly the kind of thing most companies are doing, most of the time, more often than we would like.
An awful lot of the world runs on spit and bailing wire and things too easy to automate yet, and the parts that don't cost more.
Thousand line shell scripts that use expect to drive 30+ answers to a multi-choice interactive tui (that only works on one version of redhat from 2008 or something) is not so unusual, can totally understand how it happened. No excuses in that though.
Beware even the countries internet regulatory authority (NIC) issued rogue certificates in past, about time NIC's root certificates should be ejected once and for all.
Yes, its all very well someone here shouting about "the absolutely brutal question battery the Chrome team publicly submitted to eMudhra".
But in all honesty there are serious questions to be asked about:
a) The initial approval process for ANY CA
b) The ongoing monitoring process for ANY CA
The fact this CA was based in India ultimately has nothing to do with it if we are being completely honest here.
Clearly there is a fundamental problem with the overarching approval and monitoring process which means it could have happened anywhere. This time it just happened to be India.
Secondly, in direct reference to the "far away company" comment India does have quite strict controls on both certain technical things (speaking generally here, not specifically in relation to certs ... e.g. use of sat phones). And in general it is quite difficult (read: almost impossible) to turn up in India and do business as an external company. So there is probably a genuine need for an Indian company CA since not every body can/wants to use Let's Encrypt or whatever.
CA approvals are bad. From 2000 to 2015, I ran an org where we allow-listed a modest subset of the the CAs that were approved by Google, Microsoft, and Mozilla. There were too many incidents and bad actors.
Microsoft, in particular, had strong transparency around CA approval processes that were reasonable. It was weird.
Not to give into conspiracy theories but this company might be ideologically even if not materially aligned to current regime in India. With right kind of nudge any kind business contract is possible without any competency.
You seem to have an axe against current Indian regime which is not even outside the overton window. I suggest to not get your information from liberal-arts educated islamophile journalists who are struggling to pay off their loans.
As a reminder Mozilla was warned not to add the Chinese government as a ca they pushed back claiming lack of evidence and only removed them as a ca once cnnic got caught issuing certs for google domains (by accident )
Yes, not sure what the timeline was where trust was given to this company. Just horrible for the entire secure Internet. They've yet to answer many of the basic questions raised throughout this process too.
There’s an element of nationalism in this episode, amplified by the Indian government. This company, eMudhra, is a publicly listed private company. But the union government of India nevertheless felt obligated to downplay the issue (it always goes with a denial about any issues reported) and even went on a belligerent tone.
Quoting from a news report [1]:
> The Ministry of Electronics and Information Technology (MeitY) on Wednesday said it has taken “serious note” of the reported security incident involving eMudhra’s Public Key Infrastructure (PKI) and has formed a special team to investigate the matter.
> The ministry also warned against what it called “fear mongering” on social media over the possible impact of the incident.
The company’s stock is down to the lower circuit on the stock exchanges for the last two days. This exit may be a decision to stem the beating that the stock has taken. I personally believe the stock will sink further, as it deserves to.
Trust once lost, especially in a shameful meme worthy way such as this, isn’t going to be gained back easily.
People who are still facing this on a mac (like I was) - something I tried (and I am not sure this fixes it or not - or at least somewhat):
went to keychain access app and found all emudhra and emsigner certs -> there were 4 -> clicked "get info" for each -> under Trust section of the pop-ip -> selected "When using this certificate: Never Trust".
Well, from a practical standpoint given the sheer incompetence that was on display they were “exiting” the certificate business regardless of their “decision” to do so.
This incident separately raises deep questions about the competency of the company to do much of anything in the security or compliance space.
> Chairman ... indicated that eMudhra handled the recent incident diligently, revoking the affected CAs within 14 hours of discovery and disclosing promptly
So the top still doesn't understand (it's not diligent), wouldn't you expect the other 99% of the business to be managed just as "diligently"
There were no end entity certificates issued out of the affected CA’s - that you know of
The company’s Global digital signature certificate (DSC), eSign, and other signing services, including those in India, its enterprise PKI Solutions (emCA, CertiNext platforms), emSigner eSignature Suite, and its identity and authentication solutions (SecurePass, emAS) are not affected and continue to operate as normal - maybe to a full review of those? Are you rolling your own crypto there by chance?
If anyone else also struggles to understand all the "4" references in the comments: One of their private keys was "4", with others also being in the 2-3 digit range.
> There were no end entity certificates issued out of the affected CA’s.
What does this mean from the press release? Were they only issuing other chained intermediates? Or did they never issue any ECC certificates from these at all, and everyone is paying the price?
I wonder if big roots with chained intermediates will now need to have serious pressure on their downstream intermediates to re-prove their need to exist. I know RHEL and Debian's strategy (if not others) was to pull the Comodo AAA Services root as well ...
> I wonder if big roots with chained intermediates will now need to have serious pressure on their downstream intermediates to re-prove their need to exist.
It's already in the cab agreement that basically any unlimited intermediate you sign has to follow the same rules. And yeah, as a root in the program, if an intermediate you sign turns out bad, your root cert could get pulled, so you should be careful.
The certs were intended to be used by new US and EU subsidiaries. Those were still in the process of being set up, so the certs were never used in production for customer signing.
IIRC the Comodo AAA Services root was already in the process of being retired, with its "trust bit" having been removed by Mozilla and Chrome last year. Nuking it completely should have been a no-op for end users.
The whole chaining & cross-signing song-and-dance will never go away completely. There's just no way around if if you want enrollment of a new CA to take less than a decade, or if you want CAs to be able to do any form of non-world-breaking key rotation. Intermediates signed by third-party roots are already treated with the same scrutiny as root certs, so they should have been fine...
But yes, this will undoubtedly result in even stricter verification. For example, some participants are already calling for mandating attestation that a key has been generated inside a HSM running the right config.
# of issued leaf certs isn't a great indicator of propagation, user-impact, revenue etc.
1. 59 million of those 60 million could be very short validity, duplicate enrollments from same private key/csr, etc.
2. I'm still not certain that that figure isn't including for example private roots/intermediates they've issued from.
That said they're a low volume (in terms of root/int) provider so I don't think the impact of them exiting will be great.
With over 17 years of expertise, eMudhra is a global provider of digital identity, trust, and security solutions, enabling secure digital transformation for banks and financial institutions (BFSI),
So, you were in business for 17 years and still decided to use plaintext number "4" for your private key?
The company’s Global digital signature certificate (DSC), eSign, and other signing services, including those in India, its enterprise PKI Solutions (emCA, CertiNext platforms), emSigner eSignature Suite, and its identity and authentication solutions (SecurePass, emAS) are not affected and continue to operate as normal.
Oh yeah, I'm sure the other customers are sipping their bobba tea reading about this instead of thinking "are we next?"
Fuck these clowns, in India to get an import/export license you had get a hardware key via USB from them to access the government portal. Worse yet, their website is designed to look eerily similar to a government website and a lot of people won't even be able to tell it's a private entity.
Now imagine, all the customers who had purchased this key from them have their private details exposed. There was absolutely no mention of this anywhere. Not even as much as an apology. This letter is full of arrogance, deflection and insult to injury. I hope they burn to their ground. It's a really shame the government isn't even stepping in to do anything about this as their customers are the ones that are most impacted because they mandated the stupid hardware key requirement. What a joke of a situation.
In any other country, everyone involved would be fired and there would be serious consequences for such a level of breach (Eg. Equifax). In India, even a class action suit would lead nowhere and the fact that these assholes would be operational still despite this is extremely infuriating.
> However, the level of social media amplification around this incident has brought scrutiny that is out of proportion to SSL/TLS’s place in our business
GOOD. RIDDANCE.
You cannot take these people serious. They should never ever touch something serious again.
I cant comprehend how they were able to put something like "4" as the private key. someone said that they could have used a rand generator from 0 - 255 instead of 256 bytes one. but anyway, I don't remember putting a private key value manually and always generated it with something like keygen.
X.509 needs to be replaced with a simple key you get for free during domain registration. Then the blast radius of key compromise is a single domain name and not the whole internet.
The blast radius of that is every subdomain of whoever got compromised. Having only ICANN being capable of breaking the entire internet is a world of difference from what we have today, and may be the best we can do... and we should be using that, but it's not perfect either.
It's not ICANN in that system, it's the TLD operators, and the problem with that is that for many TLDs and all the most important ones, you'd be adopting a system where your keys are directly managed by institutions we already know to have misissued. The most important TLDs are state-controlled, which is why you saw DOJ notices on piracy sites rather than NXDOMAINs.
How does a client know what public key to expect for a given domain, then?
If they key is distributed by DNS, then you need to secure DNS, e.g. with DNSSEC. Well, with DNSSEC the TLDs and root basically have the same status as CAs (although it does cut down the huge number of CAs that can issue certs).
It does, but you also lose 100% of the accountability. eMudhra is leaving this business because the root programs are about to humiliate them. There are no programs anywhere that can do the same thing to a major TLD operator.
If ICANN decides you no longer operate the TLD, and takes your name servers out of the root server zones and replaces them with somebody else's... you don't run that TLD any more, sorry, go have a good cry and then see if maybe running a hot dog stand is more your speed. DNSSEC is one of the services ICANN considers critical enough to take away your TLD stewardship if you aren't providing that service properly.
Of course we wouldn't want ICANN to do that on a whim, or without having a new operator for the TLD ready to go, but there's already process defined for both planned and emergency transfers of operation of a TLD:
You don't think so? In a scenario where it becomes known the US government is actively subverting Verisign to tamper with DNSSEC integrity (or where Verisign just screwed up badly enough to make their continued stewardship untenable, and I think either case would become known, in pretty short order), I absolutely think ICANN would expatriate .com. If they didn't, they would lose legitimacy with everybody who isn't the US government. That leads to at best an international effort to replace ICANN and at worst the splintering of the DNS root. Nobody wants either of those scenarios -- the least-damaging thing for the Internet and for ICANN as an organization would indeed to be to take .com away and let say, the British run it for awhile. (Maybe you could get your .com domain registrations at Sainsbury's, in the aisle next to the anti-demon plant misters.)
Which is exactly the kind of scenario a lot of people hyperventilated about back when ICANN was formed, for reasons of varying validity, but in this case it would indeed be the least-worst option all around.
I am 100% confident that .COM will not be rescued from law enforcement and national security surveillance by ICANN, yes.
You can disagree! But then: let's just keep the premises clear. You think DNSSEC makes sense because you also think states will lose control over their registry operators.
Wow this press release is a real PR disaster. It's really just about their business value.
Starting the statement with "a global digital trust company" is so ironic on that context.
> All physical and logical security controls remained intact.
Did the HSM have a fault, or was the key generation script at fault?
I suspect the later given the choice to exit the business. If they had strong evidence that a FIPS-compliant HSM misbehaved, I suspect they'd be more willing to fight this.
I'm surprised they didn't announce they're going into hiding instead. I'd imagine they probably have themselves covered with user agreements and contracts to some extent, but the potential liability is nearly incalculable.
I don't know what jurisdiction this would potentially fall in, but in the USA that would be a pretty straightforward crime. Tampering with evidence & obstruction of justice.
I think this opens bigger questions on who and how people get access to these capabilities. After that recent cold wallet physical supply chain take over, what sort of people are able to get certs for anything they need?
> However, the level of social media amplification around this incident has brought scrutiny that is out of proportion to SSL/TLS’s place in our business
Translation: We are exiting this business because people are being mean, and we don't get paid enough.
WTF!
They also say:
> We believe an organization's character is shown in how it responds when something goes wrong
I totally agree with this. I will judge their character based on this: No apology for wreaking havoc on the world, no admission of fault, whining about people getting pissed at the monumental incompetence, saying that they are exiting the business because "sour grapes" rather than admit they have lost the trust within the community. <sigh>
Kinda funny that logo says "Trust Delivered". They don't seem to have 0 problem with such a big scale damage on public internet and simply trying to shrug off the problem.
This is problem with Indian companies, their founder and management always try to hire cheap labor and penny pinch on everything. And, this is the result we see again and again.
Good. One less company that doesn’t give 2 shits about security. Probably billions in man hours spent deploying mitigations because they can’t manage their keys properly
They also have to convince the root programs to let them stay trusted, which can't be done by issuing vague press releases until the news cycle moves on.
Yes they didn't close down the business, it was already gone. There's not a business called "selling certs that aren't accepted by any browser or OS". That's not a product.
Absolutely no way any OS or browser manufacturer forgives them and let's their certs validate anything in the future.
True, but the founder's two sons are at the top of the company, so mission was accomplished regardless.
Really though, this is no different than people relying on accountancy firms in the rest of the world for "trust" and "security" as technology concepts. Accountancy firms have no business consulting on technology topics, and yet that is a major part of their business all over the world, because we've allowed "security" and "compliance" to become muddled concepts.
Typical bullshit where India regulations force people in India to buy local - and because the landscape is filled with incompetent and inept companies you get shit like this.
Nevermind the legal liabilities, how is their company viable with this sort of brand damage? Their other business lines aren't making toasters. It's the same line of work. They sell trust.
What about CAA records? And of course, browsers handle this with the Certificate Transparency log and the OneCRL, made less painful by baking a short-lived proof that the cert is not revoked into the handshake. The problem is all the other parts of the ecosystem that basically ignore all this new complex security stuff and just check the cert against a static list of vendored roots.
For example, node, java, and python all have vendored roots and don't check any CRLs.
Well, what about them? If you've got access to the private key, nothing is going to stop you from generating a cert violating CAA records - and it won't even be easy to detect! They are intended to protect against, say, someone hacking into your server, running ACME to get a cert, cleaning up their traces, and then intercepting your traffic for 90 days. CAA records assume the CA is trustworthy and following the rules.
There's no reason clients couldn't, as far as I know (just like the various anti-spam measures where clients check for records that indicate what servers are allowed to send mail from a domain and consider it spam if those records don't match), but I also don't know of any clients that actually do. And a CAA record still doesn't actively prevent issuance of a certificate, which is really what would be needed.
There used to be a pinning scheme called HPKP, but the trouble with it is it's very easy to accidentally (or via malicious third-party action) end up in a situation where your web site becomes unreachable by people who've visited it previously because the key changed and the pin prevents their browser recognizing the new key as valid:
It might have been little-known in your corner of the world, but I understand it's definitely not little-known in India.
You might have heard of DigiCert or IdenTrust, but what, exactly, makes them trustworthy, and why eMudhra wouldn't be considered trustworthy (a week ago)?
honestly, props to the c-suite to have enough awareness that this buisness was already dead for them and there was absolutely no pathway where they are getting their certificates trusted in PKI ever again.
this lets them exit this without public humiliation of getting made fun (and example of) in the mailing lists.
as part of a review process its not just the developer that wrote the code who gets blamed, its also the reviewer of said code.
Analog
sure eMudhra needs to be investigated and confirmed that even a small part of their business hadn't been used to compromise (it doesn't matter that they left the business, it matters that the investigation continues)
but also we need to see how it is this even happened, who dropped the ball and approved the bad code/behavior to enter in the first place??
or is this a structural issue where we need to introduce more checks/balances (tests)
When is Sectigo, the root CA that cross-signed the vulnerable intermediate CAs, going to take responsibility for fucking up too? Why should we keep trusting them?
eMudhra was a root CA. Their roots and intermediates were cross-signed by Sectigo since it was a new(-ish) root CA (a comment on Reddit characterized eMudhra as a Sectigo reseller, but I can't find verification of that), but I don't know to what extent that was done as a result of Sectigo's own evaluation vs. some internal process of a larger entity like the CA/Browser Forum. (Without cross-signing, it's difficult for a new CA to operate, so I imagine there must be some process by which a particular existing-CA cat is belled to be the cross-signer.)
I'm not sure (but would love to know) if Sectigo actively chose to sign eMudhra's certs (though if eMudhra is a reseller of theirs, it would make sense to do so), or if maybe it was just "their turn in the barrel" to be the designated cross-signer of a new CA's certs so the new CA could be a useful entity.
No? DANE is a dead letter. It doesn't work reliably on all Internet paths; too many middleboxes flip out if they see a DNS packet that doesn't look like every other DNS packet. For many years, there was an effort to work around that with "DANE stapling", where the signed DANE records were tacked on to the TLS handshake. But that leaves a chicken/egg problem, because attackers can strip the DANE records out of the handshake. The project was abandoned several years ago, and with it any real prospect of DANE becoming mainstream.
I think that's for the best; there are much bigger problems with DANE/DNSSEC than TLS reliability.
I don't think (and wouldn't hope) this would be a flag-day thing where we stop using CA trust completely all at once and only use DANE afterward. DANE would become an option, disabled or secondary by default, that users could choose to use as a fallback if CA-based TLS validation fails. Eventually as adoption increased and the critical paths got cleaned up, DANE could become the default primary, with a fallback to CA trust if there's no valid response to a TLSA record request. Eventually as CA trust fell completely out of favor for most uses, it wouldn't be necessary for many clients to support it at all.
See, this doesn't work either. One of the core jobs you have designing a secure transport is avoiding downgrade attacks, and the construction you just outlined is not only downgradable, it's explicitly downgradable, as a feature. That's not going to happen.
No? There's a very specific technical problem that makes DNSSEC hard to deploy effectively. You can't just define it away. You have to pursue solutions that solve that problem. There's a whole huge solution space to draw from, but people are so path-dependent and so predisposed to like the IETF that DNSSEC is just the only discussion we seem to be able to have.
Fortunately, the WebPKI has been ratcheting (slowly) up security over the last 15 years, so when nothing else happens, which is what I predict, at least we'll be in a better place a decade from now.
This all day. There is no reason I should have to go through a third-party to get a certificate just to distribute a key for secure communications (which is all a DV certificate is good for) if I already own a domain, or can get the domain owner to publish my TLSA record in theirs (which should be no more onerous than publishing the server A record, which they already have to do).
The reason we don't have DANE support in browsers is of course because Google decided not to implement it in Chrome, because (ultimately) the key lengths securing the root DNS server zones weren't large enough to suit them (at the time, 1024 bits):
And if Google wasn't going to do it, it didn't make sense for any other browser to do it either.
However, I believe the root zone keys are now longer, so I could (potentially) see Google implementing DANE in Chrome now, maybe with a Chrome-specific restriction of "TLSA records that have keys under 2048 bits in their chain of trust are ignored" (since the root zone keys are not the only keys in the chain and they want to eliminate 1024-bit RSA from Chrome). And if Google does it in Chrome, then everybody else has to do it too, so the situation flips.
DANE doesn't remove the requirement to get a 3rd party to vouch for your keys; it just locks you into one very specific 3rd party, one likely subject to de jure control of a state.
It seems much less likely that even a well-funded state actor could silently subvert enough root servers, which exist in many countries, to significantly compromise DNSSEC before alarms were raised, than that CAs are actively compromised or are just bad at being CAs, resulting in a breach like this (which happens approximately all the time). And with regard to state coercion, some CAs are in fact state-run, by states most people would consider grievously corrupt.
More to the point I would trust IANA and ICANN, faults and all, to not screw up the DNS/DNSSEC root, much more than I trust every CA in the default browser trust stores to get X.509 right all day, every day.
Again: you don't have to touch the root servers. The root servers are a red herring here. It's the TLD operators who exercise all the real control. IANA/ICANN will have nothing to do with the resulting situation.
Short summary of my response to that comment: you're wrong, and ICANN does not in fact have the real-world power to liberate .COM from the United States Government.
now the question for the media for the next week :
ban LLM discovery of horrendous security practices because as it turns out security-thru-obscurity is being practiced as 'good enough' across the world , or actually enforce realistic and livable security practice ?
given the insistence on picking overblown and totally partisan poor choices lately, I presume the media will sit on the side of 'we'll just ban LLMs from checking the rest of our security apparatus for single digit keys' and charge 'Wayne' with terrorism statutes.' -- but hopefully i'm just being a jaded pessimist.
I think we live in an age where programming mistakes should be attributed to llm by default. In the old days, it was just the coder and stack overflow to blame, now its layer on layer of ai assisted work, from ceo level on down. Something we haven’t perfected yet: how to prove 0 ai use in a product. Until we get there, we have to assume llm are everywhere and that their use carries liability risk.
Scrutiny is inversely proportional to bit complexity of the private keys they used. Without a failure to apologize or expose how it happened: a human mistake, process mistake, etc. this looks pretty bad on them.
> eMudhra’s global SSL/TLS infrastructure runs separately from its other operations. The company’s Global digital signature certificate (DSC), eSign, and other signing services, including those in India, its enterprise PKI Solutions (emCA, CertiNext platforms), emSigner eSignature Suite, and its identity and authentication solutions (SecurePass, emAS) are not affected and continue to operate as normal
Anyone relying on them with anything related to security or trust is playing Russian roulette at this point.
On Mozilla’s tracker, eMudhra said the keys were created on 30 April 2025 in a key generation ceremony, a recorded procedure in which keys are produced inside hardware security modules (HSMs), tamper-resistant devices built to hold keys. The keys were meant to be moved to data centres in the United States and Europe for customers needing data stored in those regions. To move them, the company added a step to ‘wrap’ each key, or encrypt it for transfer, and ‘unwrap’ it at the other end. eMudhra said a flaw in the software script created a second, weaker set of keys during this step, and because the two sets had similar names, staff used the weaker ones by mistake. It said human errors occurred at multiple steps.
source:
What's the eMudhra security scare that has rattled the internet?
https://theprint.in/tech/whats-the-emudhra-security-scare-th...
If they go to the trouble of wrapping them, use real keys. Or don't do it.
Also, it's a big "human error" to not notice this for a year and a half.
It is more likely they had a script which placed a parameter in the wrong field, due to something like using positional arguments. Or they misread the documentation for some interface.
Still incompetence. And I would love to see my theory confirmed or refuted.
Generating a key with "4" was probably done as a joke, but also is insane to have ever lived outside some devs computer.
It would be like me practicing surgery 1 hour a week and saying "well surgery only has a very small place in my 80-hour work week" in response to flagrant failure of medical care.
Yeah, the proportion if anything is too small. This is the sort of company that should not be doing anything related to security.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXUqwuzcGeU
As a consequence, these businesses are very well protected from normal market forces and are pretty much above the law. Had this incident not been an international one, they had a very good chance of getting away with it, and the people reporting this would have landed in jail.
Would you say the system forces people to be like that or people are the reason why the system is like that?
Would you do business (i.e. trust) with someone that comes from that system?
When working with different businesses across the globe, I’ve noticed Indian correspondence to incidents tends to be more a show of strength even if it’s transparently obvious that there’s no merit to the content.
Whereas western European correspondence is often more apologetic and empathetic. Even if it might sound insincere to those affected.
But it’s all just words at the end of the day. It never means much unless the business is willing to back real change to mitigate similar issues in the future and resolve undisclosed existing problems. However there’s no way for us to know if this is happening or not.
"We admit no wrongdoing. We are only settling to move past this. Our business is strong/secure/competent."
It's like the first rule you learn when you go into corporate communications is to never admit you did anything wrong or project anything other than confidence and correctness.
>According to eMudhra, proper strong keys were created in the HSM at the key ceremony on 30-04-2025. The script had been changed to test wrapping and unwrapping keys, because the intermediates were to be moved to data centres in the US and Europe, and a bug in that change created a second set of weak keys. The keys had almost identical names, and the weak ones were used for the certificate requests. The same request was signed by eMudhra's own root and sent to Sectigo, which cross-signed it. The strong keys never made it into any certificate (Bugzilla).
https://www.fairssl.se/en/articles/emudhra-ca-noegler-knaekk...
It’s get worse when these companies work with regulators to create more regulation that they can sell more of their services.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Compliance-Industrial-Complex-Opera...
Companies already control all the traffic flow on their infrastructure using end-point security solutions, the same can be extended at ISP level, and then Country level
Typically they do this for non pay but they've dropped the hammer multiple other times incorrectly (and good luck getting a RFO out of anyone there).
Only when fully satisfied they'd have given license to operate this security business.
Waiting for a release like "... the level of social media amplification around this incident has brought scrutiny that is out of proportion to OTP 1FA place in our business. In view of this, after detailed deliberations our board has concluded that withdrawing from global OTP 1FA is the right decision for eMudhra and its shareholders"
At what point does it become Russian roulette with a Glock?
> fear not, here's a complete bypass of their 1fa otp login system. they encrypt OTPs to a public key and issue those behind cloudflare turnstile. this key to be precise:
If they expect people to still trust them on their other services they have obviously no clue on how Trust works, meaning they shouldn't be in the game in the frist place.
As a trust provider you get one chance. Squander it and you're out. That is how it should be.
In any legal dispute involving them, Exhibit A will be "look at how they ran their SSL/TLS business". That won't go well.
Unsurprising if you are familiar with the indian honor code „izzat“. To quote an old kiwifarms thread:
Hi. I didn't see this term mentioned in the thread, so I wanted to share this all with you. It's about Izzat. Some posts have mentioned 'saving face', which is Izzat, but I wanted to elaborate on it.
Izzat has no direct translation into English. We only have terms that can broach the same concept such as 'honour' or 'reputation' or 'face'. Izzat is so much more than that. It's a zero-sum game of collective honour shared by whole groups of people, all of whom take it very, very seriously. A system like this isn't just foreign to Enlightenment values, but I'd argue it's antithetical to every sensible form of governance on the planet. It will destroy any system that assumes good faith.
Izzat conflicts are not about who is right and who is wrong. It's about who wins and who loses. This means it's a zero-sum game where just about any action is justified (including murder) to restore the lost Izzat. Izzat is a limited social currency and the easiest way to get it is to take it from someone else. Winning is righteous in Izzat. Losing is unrighteous. This means that if someone plays the game of izzat well enough, they can get away with just about anything (murder, rape, scamming, cheating, stealing). The only morality in Izzat is the protection of your group's collective ego. The only appropriate response when your Izzat is attacked is the complete destruction of whoever insulted it.
Two people get into an argument. They might escalate, but chances are it won't be that bad. i.e. 'Sorry I broke your garden gnome.' With two Indians in an argument, the stakes are always deadly thanks to Izzat. Neither of them can back down, nor can they admit fault. Admitting fault is seen as deliberately humiliating yourself. Not only that, but because Izzat is shared, you are shaming everyone who shares your Izzat. So, admitting fault or taking responsibility for a problem is a form of social suicide. This means even if the dispute was over something completely fucking stupid or trivial (like a broken garden gnome), it could spiral into a decades long honour feud. Izzat is also the reason why police are reluctant to get involved in disputes. Because Izzat is a zero-sum game, all participants are involved in the game. If a policeman sides with one family over another in an Izzat dispute, this means that he's deliberately taking the side of that family and dishonouring the other. This marks him for retribution by the offending party. Without parties being able to be impartial, then centralized authority cannot effectively function.
Let's say someone in India complains about a broken water pipe. Instead of the problem being addressed, the official responsible for the water pipe denies it's a problem and counterattacks him instead, because daring to question his efficacy in his role was challenging his Izzat. So the official destroys the person who brought the problem up. The water pipe never gets fixed.
Izzat is also the reason why Indian managers are so infamous for hiring more Indians. It's because from the manager's perspective, he's using his position to gain an invisible social currency. Merit and actual qualifications come second to that idea. If he hired a westerner, he would not gain or even lose Izzat by doing so. He has a very strong cultural incentive not to be impartial. Meanwhile, if he can strong-arm dozens of Indians into a company, he is gaining huge quantities of Izzat and conspirators who owe an absolute debt to him.
It's not uncommon to see Indians gloat about their success in the west. And yes, izzat is very much a system that enables short term success. But the fundamental reality is the prosperity that these Indians find so attractive in the first place wouldn't exist if the west practiced something similar to Izzat. Our systems can only exist on the assumption of good faith, and not a majority of people exploiting them for destructive short term gain. On top of that, if an Indian causes the systems and companies he comes into contact with to collapse, then he can just go back to India with his plunder. He has no stakes in the long-term prosperity, functionality or stability of these systems. The stakes are completely asymmetrical in the Indian's favour.
You all know about that infamous video of that Indian scamming a food bank. Once again, winning is righteous. Losing is not. By employing 'clever' means (jugaad), he successfully extracted more resources for himself and his family. From the perspective of jugaad, a rule is not something to respect, but merely an obstacle to the Indian's own gain. Since he cheated the system and wasn't caught, he is seen as a righteous and dignified man in the Izzat framework.
I read a story in India about a man offering to pay another man to use a public toilet instead of defecating openly. The latter left and came back with several friends and beat the former to death. The problem was not that he was defecating openly, but that he was criticised for doing so. And with Izzat, it's not an eye-for-an-eye. Izzat is often an eye-for-a-whole-head. Disproportionately and brutally annihilating your enemies is the correct move to make because you take back your lost Izzat and then some. This kind of vindictiveness would be rightly seen as horrifying and disgusting in most of the world.
Maybe, like, setting up a factory that builds both LHD and RHD cars and building cars with two passenger seats in the front for two years straight without anyone noticing?
The king was very careful to ensure all the gatekeepers were following the process correctly. It did not occur to anybody that one of the gatekeepers could be using a dirty rag to jam their gate closed instead of a lock.
Once discovered, the wall could be trivially bypassed. The security of the whole internet was immediately broken. Rebuilding the wall to block up the dodgy gate took much effort from very many people.
This system was invented in the 90s when things were looking up. China was opening up to the world, the Russians were suddenly not evil anymore, and the internet was supposed to bring us all together into one happy global society, kumbaya and all that. Obviously that didn't work out.
It's time for a rethink really. Every CA is now a single point of failure.
Citing Terry Pratchett’s “Interesting Times”.
This is why I went for a "wall with many gates" instead; any bypass makes all gates redundant.
All analogies break down at some level; the main goal is to clearly communicate the most important ideas.
Normally, the king would declare and sign a proc stating that anything signed by his secretary's "unforgeable" signet was to be respected as well. The secretary could delegate authority to others in turn.
Well turns out that one of the signets in the chain of trust was just a picture of a "four" that anybody could have forged, but nobody noticed because in all of the ceremony and stacks of parchment with wax seals, nobody actually checked if the signet was secure.
However, Kings likely benefitted from the option of a scapegoat, they could always blame someone for forging their unforgeable seal and have them killed, rather than admit that the seal was true.
If we add in attainder and escheat, the King had a pretty strong hand.
As it turns out, these documents were mostly useful for long-lived décisions, which could be overturned, and where a forgery exposed you for a lifetime.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_III_of_Artois#The_fraud...
- emudhra lawyer maybe (:
Yours is much funnier!
> "We set up a system where every government and a bunch of random banks and IT companies in the world holds the secret codes to everyone's encryption. Then we make them pinky swear not to abuse it, with stern talkings to if they do. And now it's all on fire, because one of them was irresponsible!"
You can know the intractability of the problem that PKI is solving, and the (worse) alternatives that have been tried, but that doesn't make this system not-insane to a normal person, and its at least a little bit the fault of the collective "us".
And it's not like it is an impossible problem; we rely on TOFU for SSH, we have remotely-attestable TPMs everywhere, ZKPPs / PAKEs exist, session keys and federation protocols are widespread. Somewhere in the set of "possible solutions" are options that don't sound unhinged when you explain how we got to this eMuhdra situation.
Then, everyone who trusts the CA will trust your certificate by checking it is signed by the CA who should have done the checks to ensure your certificate contains truthful data.
So your layman description of “they have secret codes to everyone’s encryption” is completely wrong.
A modern TLS connection uses an ephemeral key-exchange protocol where both parties opaquely agree to a one-time-use random encryption key that is not knowable to any other party, not even someone who can gain access to either party's private key. This is called Forward Secrecy (originally and sometimes still known as Perfect Forward Secrecy or PFS, but the use of the word "perfect" in any cryptographic context is akin to naming a ship "Unsinkable").
Your computer has a built-in list of signatures that it trusts and expects to see on the certificates, and one of those signatures was eMudhra’s. These signatures are basically just a proof that you know a secret number without revealing the number itself. If you know the secret number, you can sign the certificate.
There are an unimaginable number of secret numbers. Imagine each atom in the Great Pyramid of Giza is a secret number. And then imagine you have as many Great Pyramids of Giza as there are atoms in the universe. And then double it.
Now imagine you choose any of the numbers represented by all those atoms to sign the certificate with, and you chose 4.
It’s not technically wrong: 4 is indeed a number. But if anyone wants to guess your number, and they start at 0, it won’t take them very long to find your secret number.
Once they’ve found your secret number, they can now sign certificates pretending to be you. So someone could pretend to be your bank, and present a certificate saying “yes, I am your bank” with a signature on it that your computer trusts.
eMudhra sent you a padlock that had the code "4815" promising no one has ever used it or would be able to guess it, but all anyone really needed to try to get in is set the first number to "4" and ignore the rest.
It's not entirely accurate, but its accurate enough for them to get.
Except it's still not good enough, because you could use that key to eavesdrop nearly anything and anyone.
As a 90s kid, the Dodge Omni was a common shitbox student car. I think they had like 8 key patterns lol.
My brother’s ignition key unlocked my friends’s trunk. There were a few people who could start other peoples cars. In one case, a soccer player “stole” a football players unlocked car as they looked identical and were parked near each other. In another as a prank we unlocked cars to roll them out of parking spots and physically lift them into unusual places.
And when that clicks, extend the metaphor, literally, to a key with ~384 grooves.
I start by saying this is about the tech behind the S in HTTPS. I say that the main point of this is that when you talk to foo.com, it has to prove that the people behind foo.com are on the other end, so it's safe to send them your encrypted password or whatever.
Then I say a bit about how the system works by having a small number of trustworthy companies vouch for other people's servers. This doesn't need too much technical detail to get the point across.
Then I say one of those "trustworthy" companies put an encryption key of 4, where it's supposed to be a long number that's hard to crack. This makes the verification easy to forge.
Then I say that everybody who runs a server needs to remove this company's bad key, and Windows or Mac or your phone needs updates too. And that your web browser probably already quietly removed it, which removes a lot of the risk.
I feel like when I explain it this way people get it.
Hey the 4 was picked for good reason!
xkcd.com/221/
Mine was the lock company selling locks but also making freely available keys that would open any of their locks.
The best example I can think is (some) international borders: yeah, they're heavily regulated entities with lots of written protections (and thousands of miles of impenitrable barricades), but occassionally a hole opens up (whether physically or engineered).
Perhaps a section of border fence is occassionally destroyed (and people sneak in), but this won't happen if the border guards are approving [false] passports from a compromised government actor ("they have a valid passport, according to our inspection"), the border fence doesn't even matter!
Presume anybody can now go to that bad-passport-issuing government and request a passport to then enter any other country (i.e. the other country will see the passport as valid in the official global database): BAM, borders no longer mean anything; welcome to Privileged Accessia.
Then the intern decides, “I can just glue these identical little white circles with blue sparkles onto the screw, and it will be faster and I can take more breaks!”
1. 4.7 per 100k people per year vs 288.5: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_theft#Motor_vehi...
house collapses and people get injured.
concrete manufacture says we no longer build houses cause it’s too small of a business.
“That's the stupidest combination I've ever heard in my life! That's the kinda thing an idiot would have on his luggage!”
Then they locked it with the key you find on a chew toy for a baby.
I'm actually being serious, I do judge companies by their logo and website design taste, and more modern-looking companies also tend to pay more attention to doing things properly.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2083449#c30
It would need to be a 3, 5, or 7, since a prime is required.
Note that p,q (the primes you’re thinking of) are not actually required for decryption. They enable you to calculate d, the decryption exponent, and also enable decryption-time optimizations (exponentiation with d_p and d_q followed by CRT recombination), but that’s optional. In fact, p,q can be computed from n, e and d.
Also note that using small numbers like 65537 for RSA public exponents is common practice.
Like, that had to be malicious right? ssh-keygen won't generate a key like this, and neither will openssl or whatever Microsoft is doing behind their CA server.
[1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2083449
shrug
I think they're just absolutely inept and should never be trusted with anything security related as an organisation if this is a mistake they could make.
The "4" would be valid in hex, decimal, and even octal.
The key needs to mention which curve it is using.
Again you seem more concerned with grammar than, y'know, condemning racism, prejudice, or bigotry. They're all equally bad and closely related concepts. "A rose by another name" and so on.
Your own comment has 3 typos and several grammatical errors ("prejudiced to" is wrong, for example). Irony.
Finally, modern usages of "racism" encapsulate all of these meanings. Languages change over time.
> You can be prejudiced to any group of people, doesnt mean that you are biggoted
Yes, that's literally what it means.
All that said, I make this comment as I believe the other commenter's worry is on display im this comment here...
> Again you seem more concerned with grammar than, y'know, condemning racism, prejudice, or bigotry. They're all equally bad and closely related concepts
These are _not_ all equally bad. Prejudice is foundational to understanding, there is no escape from this. In this understanding, we should treat particular postures of prejudice more serious than collapsing any "bad prejudice" under the same label.
Do you think racism is worse than bigotry? Why? I understand that the first word has a more emotional charge in our times. But as far as "bad things to do" go they're equal in gravity. Racism is just a subset of bigotry.
> These are _not_ all equally bad
Why not?
> Prejudice is foundational to understanding
That's one definition of the word - "judging without knowing the facts".
But there's another definition - "an irrational hostile attitude, fear, or hatred towards a particular group, race, or religion" - which was the one we are operating with in this thread.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/prejudice#English
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness
I had a bunch of openwrt routers based on the ADM5120 SoC, some of them were of different endianness, totally wth:
https://linux-mips.org/wiki/Adm5120
But either way, I find the reduction of the argument to the semantics of the word racism to be deflection. Wouldn't you agree the original comment was made in poor taste? Why did it need to include a reference to Indian and imply that all things Indian made are cheap or low quality?
We applied this kind of mindset to the Japanese in the 60s and 70s, and look where that got us. I witness it happening again in the 00s and 10s applied to Korean electronics (LG and Samsung mostly) while we were content with minor improvements over the status quo and innovating far too slowly.
Yes, this incident has an almost farcical amount of stupid attached to it, but the fact that it happened to an Indian company is in my eyes only coincidental. There are plenty of Silicon Valley startups and tech companies that are equally cavalier about aspects of security and apply the mentality of "we'll fix it in post" to anything but shipping features.
Curious which language is that, and if "racism" is an accurate translation to English. What you describe sounds more like xenophobia.
> Racism is a form of discrimination in which a person is judged on the basis of his or her ethnic origin, skin color, nationality or religion. It is a form of prejudice and inequality that prevents people from gaining equal opportunities.
While I'm happy to admit that perhaps my use of the word in English is incorrect and its meaning there is more narrow, in Dutch it covers nationality or religion as well. Islamophobia is considered racist ("racistisch") in Dutch, for example.
[0]: https://www.nationaalwoordenboek.nl/woord/racisme.html
Most companies handle security very badly.
This seems like a weird statement given that anyone can issue certificates out of the affected CAs.
The more interesting targets will be various REST etc apis being called over https. Lots of people doing API clients have been ignoring the "what if someone tricks me to connect to an evil server" vector, because they assume TLS verification will protect them.
They just didn't mention that now anyone can be their own Certificate Authority.
Is 14 hours a diligent response time for something like this?
It was ~15hrs 30 minutes to first revocation
I was hoping the statement at the bottom would be written in past tense: eMudhra was a global provider of digital identity ... had temporarily enabled secure digital transformation ... Its product suite spanned CertiNext...
As I am writing, my iPhone 15 Pro is still accepting certificates signed by these compromised CAs. The device is "up to date", yet is still running Trust Store Version 2026073000. When I check at [2], certificates issued by 3 eMudhra Intermediate CAs are still being trusted!
Google Chrome revoked these certificates in 1 hour 40 minutes, Mozilla in just under 4 hours.
I am so astonished by how much Apple has failed here. There are potentially huge swathes of people completely oblivious that their phones are susceptible right now to being man-in-the-middle attacked.
Why does the iPhone not utilise a CRL list? Why does it take Apple 5+ days to do what Chrome did in under 2 hours.
It's a similar story for my MacBook, but at least there my Chrome browser _does_ use a CRL (the same can't be said for all the programs installed, however).
[1] https://fenko.nz/blog/emudhra-ca-compromise/#what-happened-i...
[2] https://emudhra.we-have-a-problem.com/
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50189521
I suspect Apple published no update and is relying on the CA's CRL and/or OCSP to do its job. But it's rate-limited, the connections time out, and iOS is hard-coded to soft-fail.
Like you my trust store is months old.
That said, I found separate installs of Firefox and Microsoft Edge that accepted *all* the bad certificates without a care.
The only browser that consistently rejected all of them was — you guessed it — Internet Explorer. A browser so old it couldn't even run the test properly but it did what it needed to and blocked all the servers.
I am not smart enough to say how, but the sheer amount of work this created across the industry is monstrous. It probably has cost $billions to mitigate, and those mitigations have been slow and ineffective (see: my iPhone still being vulnerable).
In my experience, seemingly random pieces of software, libraries, and programming languages packaging their own CA stores has made this much harder to mitigate than simply running 'apt-get update ca-certificates'. We've practically just had to update every single thing to mitigate this.
(Even with all the related options disabled, e.g., ocspd on OSX still regularly connects to random certificate related services to "check" on things. Something related to random root certificates I don't have in the system trust store or such, Not entirely sure what this is about and how to get rid of the requests in any other way than blocking things with Little Snitch)
So actually 3 days ago.
Report OE11044088569486, but currently it's just under review and invisible.
Just now on M1 Pro Safari.
On M1 Prp Firefox: none.
On iPhone 17: Safari: none, Firefox: none.
I just tried on Safari, it still trusted 2/14 compromised chains.
Rubbish.
edit: I went to keychain access app and found all emudhar and em signer certs -> there were four -> clicked get info for each -> under Trust section of the pop-ip -> selected "When using this certificate: never trust".
Now all checks on https://emudhra.we-have-a-problem.com pass for me.
... 5 days later and I know better than to do online banking or messaging on my iPhone 15.
So they didn't even use their own certificates? :)
i'm not sure how much i should read into this, but if you're sending out warnings to people susceptible to ask chatgpt about it, don't say the company is Indian.
Adding "out of the affected CA's" is top PR weasel wording that will slip by non-technical people who read this.
Congratulations to those who wrote or prompted this statement.
Good that we are now investing thousands of engineering hours globally to fix this.
Several tech stacks require upgrades of their runtime, python is an ungodly mess with certifi, but yes. It's just 1% of your revenue.
Sorry, it's been a long week.
It might even be sensible to intentionally revoke a small number of certificates every month, to make sure nobody is complacent.
My wife bought this fuckass IoT air purifier that's constantly phoning home. I'm gonna figure out what it's telling the mothership.
https://www.mitmproxy.org/posts/releases/mitmproxy-12.3/
My wife still plays her freemium games, the ads just don't load. She took out one of those games when we were sitting at the airport once. She was frustrated that her once-pleasant strategy game was suddenly crammed full of ads for boomer slot machine apps, and I had to explain that the app had probably always been that way.
I am reminded of the US DST changes back in the 2000s: there was all sorts of drama because a lot of software is written in the US, and there was much 'computerization' in the 1990s, but US coders had never personally experienced a DST rule change during that time period, so any change needed a reboot to pick up the new rules.
That drama led to (e.g.) periodic dynamic checking of /etc/localtime on various Unix-y system.
Sometimes you don't realize that things can be improved until you experience situations in which they currently suck.
> He has wide experience spanning over 45 years in Banking, Financial Services and Technology Industry. His profound understanding of the digital security landscape has been instrumental in eMudhra's global expansion and innovation. ...
> A thought leader and author, Mr. Srinivasan penned "New Age Management Philosophy from Ancient Indian Wisdom," ...
> Under his visionary leadership, eMudhra has become a cornerstone in digital security, known for its pioneering solutions and steadfast adherence to global standards.
https://emudhra.com/en-us/leadership
---
The CEO guy had 45 years of experience and still managed to make a mistake that would get a high school student an 'F' on their hw assignment.
I can even hear this conversation happening: what? I need to open this America/Los_Angeles file just to convert a timestamp? What pretentious overengineering! I want a single-file executable with zero dependencies. Let me hard code the rules.
Isn't this what Go programs are to a certain extent?
(Actually Go allows you to embed the tz database instead of forcing you to hardcode, so I hope this issue won’t be very widespread.)
Let's call it "Let's Decrypt!"
We've had to rework part of our application and certificate use because of this.
Now we are in a situation where we don't really have a practical and correct way to revoke certificates, but many, many things depend on pki.
No, this is not even remotely sensible.
An analogy would be shutting down neighborhood streets versus shutting down major highways in a state for a hurricane evacuation. You can't test the latter at scale.
Code paths and procedures that aren't exercised regularly are broken.
Even better is having a way to reoke keys and big players occasionally include revoked keys in trust chains and blast a warning if the revoked key is considered valid.
If you don't know if you can hot-swap your certs, you probably can't.
I can see the case on phones: the OS may no longer be supported by the vendor, so browsers shipping their own set makes sense. And on embedded there isn't (and on IOT there might not be) an OS, but then you should probably just ship the the single CA that you use, not all of them.
But at the end of the day if you're not prepared to revoke the trust of any CA you trust, it's a you problem
"no one was quite prepared for intermediate certificate revocation" is actually worse because as an intermediate CA, they obviously didn't meet the requirements to be a full root CA, so why wouldn't they be more likely to need revocation than a root? Honestly more negligent than being unable to revoke a root.
That doesn't mean it's cheap or easy, or that it's reasonable for the responsible party to brush off all the havoc they've caused.
This demonstrates how hard we are messed up in a CA revocation. But no need to rub it in like that, is there?
We have been operating in India for a while. People do not take security, processes, etc., seriously in India. At least most of the organizations do not. Most likely, a human error caused the incident, and guardrails could have prevented it.
The sad part is that even after a major incident like this, the org is probably not going to invest in tools and processes to improve their posture. They will only do what is necessary to meet compliance. This is just the nature of a market driven by low margins and low-quality vendors.
There is no malice here by the org; it is just unfortunate.
[1] https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/EMUDHRA.NS/
If this company was so incompetent that their private keys were a single byte, I seriously wonder what other areas they're incompetent in but that they've ventured into anyway. When you fail so spectacularly and so publicly at something like being a certificate authority, in the manner that eMudra did, it's rather hard not to wonder.
There are a lot of reassuring statements from browser makers and others about how their mitigations for exactly this scenario kicked in and protected (some set of) Internet users, but IMHO there is not nearly enough discussion happening about fixing things so those mitigations are not needed to begin with.
The problem is that those same people tend to disappear as soon as you ask "So what should we do instead?"
In the 90s vision of a truly globalised world that might have made sense but in today's geopolitical reality it's insane.
If this had been in place already, instead breaking the internet this would have been purely a regional issue.
Besides, there could be more CAs supporting .in of course.
Only a few major CAs in jurisdictions that admit heavy scrutiny and legal liability should operate. Country-specific CAs, if any, should only be scoped to signing certificates for their respective ccTLDs.
Also the industry has changed a lot since Let's Encrypt. You could have argued against monopolizing the CA issuance to just a few countries/entities as sovereignty issue, and CAs were indeed exhibiting extreme rent-seeking behavior before Let's Encrypt. With a guaranteed free and accessible alternative in the mix, the weight of the arguments against would change.
You could argue single point of failure, which is fair, so then set up another LE clone which is run in a similar way in another (reasonable) country.
(And there is of course non TLS certs, such as code signing and S/MIME, if that is still a thing. I'm only arguing about the TLS case here.)
https://emudhra.com/en/press-release/emudhra-to-exit-global-...
Is there some reputation left to salvage here that I'm not aware of? Who would trust them?
But more importantly they don't need to any such name change. For people who matter in India it is just some random incident which Anti-Indian entities are whining about.
Does this mean "trust no indian CAs"? those "Anti-Indian" entities hold a lot of power, and the indian IT industry needs to maintain the trust it has with the rest of the world.
To think of reasoning may help them course correct is wishful thinking. Read about Indian pharma sector and what kind crappy, dangerous drugs they are peddling to world.
This is confident, resurgent India . Reason, competency are racist words if used agaist them.
The technical people will just install a certbot and use the default Let's Encrypt config.
they should tear down the entire barn
The private key of your globally trusted CA is infrastructure data and it was breached.
> All physical and logical security controls remained intact.
No, because you promised the CA Program that those keys would be HSM generated, FIPS 140-2 level 3 compliant. Ain't no compliant HSM in the world that will generate "4" as a private key.
> There were no end entity certificates issued out of the affected CA's.
I charitably read this as "revoking these weak CA didn't affect customers". But now your whole root is being revoked next week (which you forgot to mention). All your TLS customers get screwed.
Overall, good choice to give up, but lying on your way out is not a good look for a company with the tagline "Trust Delivered".
As in, Chrome will distrust your CA and your business is dead. I think that's reasonable.
Popcorn recommended for the read!
lol, I didn't realize the latest comic was also topical.
https://xkcd.com/3314/
lol
It looks like the halfsix has a problem. Is gird fine for now?
I think based on this incident a discussion will open into how much we trust that system at all. With the level of espionage tactics some countries are keen to show the rest of the world, I personally assume absolutely anything can be sniffed.
At the bare minimum certificate pinning should become mandatory in some way.
https://uit.stanford.edu/service/ssl/emSign
What a weak minded statement. Just admit you messed up and call it a day.
The statement can use whatever weasel words it likes, but the action pretty clearly says "we aren't mature enough as an organisation to handle this responsibility." Which would be quite the concern for me, if I were a customer for one of eMudhra's other product lines.
Folks in India — especially the boomer class — are trepidated by how they're perceived over actual substance and quality of their work (exceptions exist, of course).
Edit: Sudhir Kakar's (an Indian psychoanalyst) work on Indian identity (The Inner World, Intimate Relations) helped me decode my own origin culture's internal logic. Highly recommend it for people of South Asian diaspora.
In martial arts the winner will often say "I got lucky" or "you almost had me" to allow the loser to save face, at least publicly, when in reality the skill gap is evident.
A bad loser tries to save face. A good winner helps them.
The company we're discussing is being a bad loser.
no grace if you use 4 as the private key for a trusted authority.
> Izzat (Bengali: ইজ্জত; Hindi: इज़्ज़त; Urdu: عزت, romanized: 'izzat, lit. 'honour') literally translated: "respect" is a concept of prestige, dignity, and social respect.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izzat
* Similar? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)
Also, this is the response from official Indian Ministry of Electronics & IT:
…” However, some social media accounts are indulging in fear mongering about the impact of this incident.…”
Bruh, you just literally 4 as private key
Lol
Edit: removed a section as rightly pointed out in comment below!
“One of eMudhra’s certificate authority private keys is the number 4. Not a number that starts with 4, or the number 4 followed by a few hundred random digits, just, 4… Another one is 56, and another is 115. I know, because I recovered all of them from their public certificates on my laptop just now, and it took less than a second,” wrote Helme.
Security researcher Scott Helme was among those who recovered the keys. This is a hall-of-fame level fail.
No, their private key is 4. Moreover, you wouldn't see the literal number 4 because the PEM key file would have the cryptographic sections encoded in base64.
Just the sheer size and diversity of the Indian "boomer class" could put such generalizations in doubt?
> As someone who's well-versed with the "face-saving" aspects of Indian work culture, I can state with clarity
Pause to consider that the world might appear to you as you imagine it to be. That is, it might be holding up a mirror in to your own psyche.
People like you are the ones make the world place to live in
Thus
People are the ones that make the world a place to live in.
Thanks for your insightful reflection.
You joke, but this happened to my cousin.
As someone who's blood is tainted with teflon and microplastics same as you, I can state with clarity that attributing universal corporate tendencies to national work culture is completely in character for a Sagittarius.
It raises the question why these CAs agree to participate on this forum and then complain about doing so.
1: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1950144
You apparently don't understand Indians.
(I presume that's a typo.)
e.g. Japanese culture in many circumstances requires a company to rush to apologize for the smallest perceived (not even actual) fault
For a something this big they'd probably have execs making a visit to a certain forest.
Certainly can't speak for the rest of the world.
War crimes stuffs is a separate and a bit more nuanced issue. It's also not just the simple matter of admitting or denying it.
learn about Izzat and Jugaad in their "culture". That explains the problem itself, as well as the reaction ;)
I see this more as "we didn't know this was so complex and the juice no longer looks worth the squeeze."
Probably just a botched translation though
Indians at this level operate with English as their native language.
I have to assume the fact this didn't get discovered suggests they weren't investing in trying to break their own crypto. A good takeaway for anyone else who wants to be in this space.
A unit test becoming prod data? That’s really all I’ve got and that’s pretty unforgivable.
Some people just follow a spec and don't stop to think what that spec is supposed to accomplish.
Human error was selecting the wrong output file and promoting it forward.
It's not at all the kind of thing you want to see in a reliable, secure, mature process... There shouldn't be a step where a human even makes a choice there.
And it's exactly the kind of thing most companies are doing, most of the time, more often than we would like.
An awful lot of the world runs on spit and bailing wire and things too easy to automate yet, and the parts that don't cost more.
Thousand line shell scripts that use expect to drive 30+ answers to a multi-choice interactive tui (that only works on one version of redhat from 2008 or something) is not so unusual, can totally understand how it happened. No excuses in that though.
Plug for a friends boardgame - which uses D4's as playing pieces:
https://bsgames.ca/games/sinoda/
https://security.googleblog.com/2014/07/maintaining-digital-...
But in all honesty there are serious questions to be asked about:
a) The initial approval process for ANY CA
b) The ongoing monitoring process for ANY CA
The fact this CA was based in India ultimately has nothing to do with it if we are being completely honest here.
Clearly there is a fundamental problem with the overarching approval and monitoring process which means it could have happened anywhere. This time it just happened to be India.
Secondly, in direct reference to the "far away company" comment India does have quite strict controls on both certain technical things (speaking generally here, not specifically in relation to certs ... e.g. use of sat phones). And in general it is quite difficult (read: almost impossible) to turn up in India and do business as an external company. So there is probably a genuine need for an Indian company CA since not every body can/wants to use Let's Encrypt or whatever.
Microsoft, in particular, had strong transparency around CA approval processes that were reasonable. It was weird.
Far away from the default country?
This is a sample on what it looks like during covid lockdown : https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1728790
Quoting from a news report [1]:
> The Ministry of Electronics and Information Technology (MeitY) on Wednesday said it has taken “serious note” of the reported security incident involving eMudhra’s Public Key Infrastructure (PKI) and has formed a special team to investigate the matter.
> The ministry also warned against what it called “fear mongering” on social media over the possible impact of the incident.
The company’s stock is down to the lower circuit on the stock exchanges for the last two days. This exit may be a decision to stem the beating that the stock has taken. I personally believe the stock will sink further, as it deserves to.
Trust once lost, especially in a shameful meme worthy way such as this, isn’t going to be gained back easily.
[1]: https://www.businesstoday.in/technology/story/impact-has-bee...
Will they send a "strongly worded letter"? That's the best way to make sure such an incident never occurs again. /s
went to keychain access app and found all emudhra and emsigner certs -> there were 4 -> clicked "get info" for each -> under Trust section of the pop-ip -> selected "When using this certificate: Never Trust".
Now all checks on https://emudhra.we-have-a-problem.com pass for me.
This incident separately raises deep questions about the competency of the company to do much of anything in the security or compliance space.
So the top still doesn't understand (it's not diligent), wouldn't you expect the other 99% of the business to be managed just as "diligently"
The company’s Global digital signature certificate (DSC), eSign, and other signing services, including those in India, its enterprise PKI Solutions (emCA, CertiNext platforms), emSigner eSignature Suite, and its identity and authentication solutions (SecurePass, emAS) are not affected and continue to operate as normal - maybe to a full review of those? Are you rolling your own crypto there by chance?
So far their responses to critical questions in the Bugzilla (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2083449) have been rather weak and delayed.
mitmproxy adds --emudhra option - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50189232 - Oct 2026 (139 comments)
Your MCU likely escaped the eMudhra intermediate CA compromise - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50183280 - Oct 2026 (26 comments)
Eight Bits of Trust: eMudhra's CA keys cracked in milliseconds - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50177916 - Oct 2026 (445 comments)
eMudhra intermediate CA compromise - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50166579 - Oct 2026 (491 comments)
Isn't the problem that anyone can/could issue end entity certificates with those certificates as "parent"?
Apparently they generated them like this: https://xkcd.com/221/
What does this mean from the press release? Were they only issuing other chained intermediates? Or did they never issue any ECC certificates from these at all, and everyone is paying the price?
I wonder if big roots with chained intermediates will now need to have serious pressure on their downstream intermediates to re-prove their need to exist. I know RHEL and Debian's strategy (if not others) was to pull the Comodo AAA Services root as well ...
It's already in the cab agreement that basically any unlimited intermediate you sign has to follow the same rules. And yeah, as a root in the program, if an intermediate you sign turns out bad, your root cert could get pulled, so you should be careful.
IIRC the Comodo AAA Services root was already in the process of being retired, with its "trust bit" having been removed by Mozilla and Chrome last year. Nuking it completely should have been a no-op for end users.
The whole chaining & cross-signing song-and-dance will never go away completely. There's just no way around if if you want enrollment of a new CA to take less than a decade, or if you want CAs to be able to do any form of non-world-breaking key rotation. Intermediates signed by third-party roots are already treated with the same scrutiny as root certs, so they should have been fine...
But yes, this will undoubtedly result in even stricter verification. For example, some participants are already calling for mandating attestation that a key has been generated inside a HSM running the right config.
1. 59 million of those 60 million could be very short validity, duplicate enrollments from same private key/csr, etc. 2. I'm still not certain that that figure isn't including for example private roots/intermediates they've issued from.
That said they're a low volume (in terms of root/int) provider so I don't think the impact of them exiting will be great.
Fuck these clowns, in India to get an import/export license you had get a hardware key via USB from them to access the government portal. Worse yet, their website is designed to look eerily similar to a government website and a lot of people won't even be able to tell it's a private entity.
Now imagine, all the customers who had purchased this key from them have their private details exposed. There was absolutely no mention of this anywhere. Not even as much as an apology. This letter is full of arrogance, deflection and insult to injury. I hope they burn to their ground. It's a really shame the government isn't even stepping in to do anything about this as their customers are the ones that are most impacted because they mandated the stupid hardware key requirement. What a joke of a situation.
In any other country, everyone involved would be fired and there would be serious consequences for such a level of breach (Eg. Equifax). In India, even a class action suit would lead nowhere and the fact that these assholes would be operational still despite this is extremely infuriating.
GOOD. RIDDANCE.
You cannot take these people serious. They should never ever touch something serious again.
The blast radius of that is every subdomain of whoever got compromised. Having only ICANN being capable of breaking the entire internet is a world of difference from what we have today, and may be the best we can do... and we should be using that, but it's not perfect either.
If they key is distributed by DNS, then you need to secure DNS, e.g. with DNSSEC. Well, with DNSSEC the TLDs and root basically have the same status as CAs (although it does cut down the huge number of CAs that can issue certs).
Of course we wouldn't want ICANN to do that on a whim, or without having a new operator for the TLD ready to go, but there's already process defined for both planned and emergency transfers of operation of a TLD:
https://www.icann.org/en/contracted-parties/registry-operato...
Which is exactly the kind of scenario a lot of people hyperventilated about back when ICANN was formed, for reasons of varying validity, but in this case it would indeed be the least-worst option all around.
You can disagree! But then: let's just keep the premises clear. You think DNSSEC makes sense because you also think states will lose control over their registry operators.
#1 Executive bonuses
#2 Shareholder value
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#NaN customer trust
#NaN security
[0] https://x.com/shobhitic/status/2112875765570359475
I will never trust any brand that even remotely sounds like this company.
Did the HSM have a fault, or was the key generation script at fault?
I suspect the later given the choice to exit the business. If they had strong evidence that a FIPS-compliant HSM misbehaved, I suspect they'd be more willing to fight this.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50194909
"Oh sorry, we erased the evidence because we no longer had use for it"
https://www.google.com/search?q=4+is+cosmic
> Ready to Try?
> Talk to our team about how eMudhra can help secure your digital workflows with PKI, eSignatures and identity solutions.
> Connect with sales
Translation: We are exiting this business because people are being mean, and we don't get paid enough.
WTF!
They also say: > We believe an organization's character is shown in how it responds when something goes wrong
I totally agree with this. I will judge their character based on this: No apology for wreaking havoc on the world, no admission of fault, whining about people getting pissed at the monumental incompetence, saying that they are exiting the business because "sour grapes" rather than admit they have lost the trust within the community. <sigh>
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZTqEHehcETo
This is problem with Indian companies, their founder and management always try to hire cheap labor and penny pinch on everything. And, this is the result we see again and again.
From everything that came out they seem terribly unqualified.
it doesn't matter that they left the business, it matters that _they_ continue to be investigated
Or silently spin out a subsidiary under a new name who takes over the cert business, and redirect existing customers there for renewals.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2083449#c30 They're being asked some very pointed questions about why they encountered problems with the key generation process at the time but didn't properly investigate.
Don't these people pay any attention to politics?
Absolutely no way any OS or browser manufacturer forgives them and let's their certs validate anything in the future.
First one I clicked on?
Really though, this is no different than people relying on accountancy firms in the rest of the world for "trust" and "security" as technology concepts. Accountancy firms have no business consulting on technology topics, and yet that is a major part of their business all over the world, because we've allowed "security" and "compliance" to become muddled concepts.
We have established he could at least count to 4 :)
Are they liable?
For example, node, java, and python all have vendored roots and don't check any CRLs.
Well, what about them? If you've got access to the private key, nothing is going to stop you from generating a cert violating CAA records - and it won't even be easy to detect! They are intended to protect against, say, someone hacking into your server, running ACME to get a cert, cleaning up their traces, and then intercepting your traffic for 90 days. CAA records assume the CA is trustworthy and following the rules.
There used to be a pinning scheme called HPKP, but the trouble with it is it's very easy to accidentally (or via malicious third-party action) end up in a situation where your web site becomes unreachable by people who've visited it previously because the key changed and the pin prevents their browser recognizing the new key as valid:
https://scotthelme.co.uk/im-giving-up-on-hpkp/
My trust in those vetting the CAs is completely broken now.
You might have heard of DigiCert or IdenTrust, but what, exactly, makes them trustworthy, and why eMudhra wouldn't be considered trustworthy (a week ago)?
That’s sort of the problem the CA forum (badly) addresses. The consumers of the CAs are not specifically exposed to failures of the CA they choose.
One man's "little known company with no cybersecurity muscle" is another one's "sovereign certificate infrastructure."
this lets them exit this without public humiliation of getting made fun (and example of) in the mailing lists.
Analog
sure eMudhra needs to be investigated and confirmed that even a small part of their business hadn't been used to compromise (it doesn't matter that they left the business, it matters that the investigation continues)
but also we need to see how it is this even happened, who dropped the ball and approved the bad code/behavior to enter in the first place??
or is this a structural issue where we need to introduce more checks/balances (tests)
Surely they should be investigated by the local regulator.
https://www.deccanherald.com/india/meity-forms-team-to-probe...
~ Not a quote from the press release
You can't vibe code your way out of trust after causing a $100M dollar stock price crash over the silliness of how weak their root CA private key was.
I think that's for the best; there are much bigger problems with DANE/DNSSEC than TLS reliability.
Fortunately, the WebPKI has been ratcheting (slowly) up security over the last 15 years, so when nothing else happens, which is what I predict, at least we'll be in a better place a decade from now.
The reason we don't have DANE support in browsers is of course because Google decided not to implement it in Chrome, because (ultimately) the key lengths securing the root DNS server zones weren't large enough to suit them (at the time, 1024 bits):
https://www.imperialviolet.org/2015/01/17/notdane.html
And if Google wasn't going to do it, it didn't make sense for any other browser to do it either.
However, I believe the root zone keys are now longer, so I could (potentially) see Google implementing DANE in Chrome now, maybe with a Chrome-specific restriction of "TLSA records that have keys under 2048 bits in their chain of trust are ignored" (since the root zone keys are not the only keys in the chain and they want to eliminate 1024-bit RSA from Chrome). And if Google does it in Chrome, then everybody else has to do it too, so the situation flips.
More to the point I would trust IANA and ICANN, faults and all, to not screw up the DNS/DNSSEC root, much more than I trust every CA in the default browser trust stores to get X.509 right all day, every day.
ban LLM discovery of horrendous security practices because as it turns out security-thru-obscurity is being practiced as 'good enough' across the world , or actually enforce realistic and livable security practice ?
given the insistence on picking overblown and totally partisan poor choices lately, I presume the media will sit on the side of 'we'll just ban LLMs from checking the rest of our security apparatus for single digit keys' and charge 'Wayne' with terrorism statutes.' -- but hopefully i'm just being a jaded pessimist.
I wish any company that gets sunk by this a very happy go-out-of-business.